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  #91  
Old 05-09-2019, 12:29 PM
Mohoney Mohoney is offline
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Originally Posted by Lip Man 1 View Post
Five years into a rebuild (and counting) if they are lucky.
Five years is a fairly standard length of time for a rebuild. Combining that with a small-market approach to spending money also means it could take more than one attempt. Look at the Royals, Reds, Pirates, Brewers, Orioles, Blue Jays, and other similar small-market teams that were lousy for longer than five years before everything finally clicked.
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  #92  
Old 05-10-2019, 07:45 AM
Tragg Tragg is offline
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The Cubs and the Astros rebuilt in 3 years*; the Brewers in 2. The As in 2. The Rays rebuilt on the fly over 2 seasons, basically using the seller's market in the July trading period to remake their team (versus doing virtually nothing), while always prioritizing pitching and defense.
The Giants won 3 Word Championships this decade, and when they started floundering, they axed their obsolete FO that refused to used modern techniques and brought in a modern FO.
And the Padres....what is the excuse for being so far behind them? They are on the exact timeline as the Sox (and it's a lot more than Hahn's Tatis/Shields/Machado clownshows all of which helped the Padres immensely.).
None of these teams traded players at the level of Sale, Eaton and Q, all in their primes with multiple years left on their deals.
There are so few straws left to grasp that now the Royals and Pirates who "Rebuilt" (if you want to call it that) in a different era are being pushed as proper comparisons. My goodness.....

The problem is a FO that adamantly refuses to bring modern technology to the organization (especially in pitching), that prioritizes the comfort of lifers, and that is being led by a career suit who has the all the characteristics of weak manager, doesn't know talent and has no idea how to build a baseball team. The GM lacks either the the strength to push this organization to change and modernize and to bring in top personnel or he lacks the self-awareness to recognize how unproductive he's been, the recognition of which might compel him to modernize.
The only chance this rebuild has is that he hits on everything from this point forward (Collins, Dunning, Kopech, Cease, Robert and a bunch of others)...no misses. And that has very little chance of happening. It will likely be more yapping about "injuries", "luck" , "who could have known" "we're searching for premium talent". But he'll sound good doing it all the way to 75 wins.

*And if you want to say "oh no the Astros lost for 6 years" then the Sox are currently in year 7 of the rebuild.

Last edited by Tragg; 05-10-2019 at 08:18 AM.
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  #93  
Old 05-10-2019, 08:17 AM
kobo kobo is offline
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Originally Posted by Tragg View Post
The Cubs and the Astros rebuilt in 3 years*; the Brewers in 2. The As in 2.
The Giants won 3 Word Championships this decade, and when they started floundering, they axed their obsolete FO that refused to used modern techniques and brought in a modern FO.
And the Padres....what is the excuse for being so far behind them?
None of these teams traded players at the level of Sale, Eaton and Q, all in their primes with multiple years left on their deals.
The problem is a FO that adamantly refuses to bring modern technology to the organization, that prioritizes the comfort of lifers, and that is being led by a career suit who has the all the characteristics of weak manager, doesn't know talent and has no idea how to build a baseball team. Even worse he lacks the self-awareness to recognize how unproductive he's been, so that we'll never see a change in method. The pitching program in this organization is deplorable.
The only chance this rebuild has is that he hits on everything from this point forward (Collins, Dunning, Kopech, Cease, Robert and a bunch of others)...no misses. And that has very little chance of happening.
For tangible evidence, look at the veterans this FO has scouted and signed. And there are no excuses with those guys: you can't use "injuries", "luck" or "who could have known".

*And if you want to say "oh no the Astros lost for 6 years" then the Sox are currently in year 7 of the rebuild.
1. How do you know this? I see this being thrown around all the time and absolutely no proof or examples to back up this assertion.



2. What the hell are you even rambling about here?
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  #94  
Old 05-10-2019, 11:10 AM
GoSox2K3 GoSox2K3 is offline
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Originally Posted by Tragg View Post
The Cubs and the Astros rebuilt in 3 years*; the Brewers in 2. The As in 2. The Rays rebuilt on the fly over 2 seasons, basically using the seller's market in the July trading period to remake their team (versus doing virtually nothing), while always prioritizing pitching and defense.
The Cubs lost 89 games in year 3 of their rebuild and their lineup featured studs like Darwin Barney and Luis Valbuena
https://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/CHC/2014.shtml

The Astros lost 111 games in year 3 of their rebuild.

https://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/HOU/2013.shtml

But let's not let facts get in the way of our narrative. You keep repeating falsehoods like they're facts. Saying it 50 more times isn't going to make it any more true.

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The Giants won 3 Word Championships this decade, and when they started floundering, they axed their obsolete FO that refused to used modern techniques and brought in a modern FO.
And the Padres....what is the excuse for being so far behind them? They are on the exact timeline as the Sox (and it's a lot more than Hahn's Tatis/Shields/Machado clownshows all of which helped the Padres immensely.).
None of these teams traded players at the level of Sale, Eaton and Q, all in their primes with multiple years left on their deals.
There are so few straws left to grasp that now the Royals and Pirates who "Rebuilt" (if you want to call it that) in a different era are being pushed as proper comparisons. My goodness.....
Who said this on WSI? Do you have specific posts you can point to or are you pulling this claim out of thin air? My goodness, indeed.


Quote:
The problem is a FO that adamantly refuses to bring modern technology to the organization (especially in pitching), that prioritizes the comfort of lifers, and that is being led by a career suit who has the all the characteristics of weak manager, doesn't know talent and has no idea how to build a baseball team. The GM lacks either the the strength to push this organization to change and modernize and to bring in top personnel or he lacks the self-awareness to recognize how unproductive he's been, the recognition of which might compel him to modernize.
I'm no fan of Rick Hahn's performance, but this is pure speculation.

Last edited by GoSox2K3; 05-12-2019 at 02:31 PM.
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  #95  
Old 05-10-2019, 01:05 PM
Mohoney Mohoney is offline
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Another thing that neither the Cubs nor Astros had was this hypothetical .500-ish season of “showing progress” that many posters here are demanding to see from the Sox this year. The Cubs and Astros immediately went from bad to good.
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  #96  
Old 05-10-2019, 01:11 PM
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Another thing that neither the Cubs nor Astros had was this hypothetical .500-ish season of “showing progress” that many posters here are demanding to see from the Sox this year. The Cubs and Astros immediately went from bad to good.
The Cubs and Astros also never had any injuries to key prospects or high draft choices that either did not pan out or simply did not sign with the team.
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  #97  
Old 05-10-2019, 10:32 PM
Hitmen77 Hitmen77 is offline
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Another thing that neither the Cubs nor Astros had was this hypothetical .500-ish season of “showing progress” that many posters here are demanding to see from the Sox this year. The Cubs and Astros immediately went from bad to good.
Also, some of their top players took a couple of years in the majors to finally start clicking (yes, the mighty Astros and Cubs). Yet, we're screaming failure and bust after Moncada's and Giolito's first full season. I suppose we should have written off Anderson last season, too.
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  #98  
Old 05-10-2019, 10:50 PM
Paulwny Paulwny is offline
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Another thing that neither the Cubs nor Astros had was this hypothetical .500-ish season of “showing progress” that many posters here are demanding to see from the Sox this year. The Cubs and Astros immediately went from bad to good.
The cubs also had RR as manager.
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  #99  
Old 05-11-2019, 09:19 AM
Tragg Tragg is offline
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Renteria managed the Cubs and they got rid of him after 1 year. Bunting down 2 in the 7th with 2 out an no one on? That cost us our best chance to win. We know Renteria doesn't use analytics, but you don't need analytics to know how inane that is. He plays not to lose. But we need him because he speaks Spanish...that's as patronizing and weak as trying to sign Machado based on his friends rather than on a market contract.
Renteria's a clear anchor on this team, but he serves Hahn's purpose: there is little chance he will show Hahn up.
Strong managers hire higher personnel that are smarter than them; the weak hire the ones they are sure won't outshine them.

Last edited by Tragg; 05-11-2019 at 09:39 AM.
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  #100  
Old 05-11-2019, 09:29 AM
Maximo Maximo is offline
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Originally Posted by Tragg View Post
Renteria managed the Cubs and they got rid of him after 1 year. Bunting down 2 in the 7th with 2 out an no one on? We know Renteria doesn't use analytics, but you don't need analytics to know how inane that is. He plays not to lose. But we need him because he speaks Spanish...that's as patronizing as trying to sign Machado based on his friends rather than on a market contract.
Renteria's a clear anchor on this team, but Hahn is too weak to hold anyone accountable, not to mention to modernize and to push analytics into the organization. Of course if he held Renteria (or anyone else) accountable that might mean that he would be held accountable.
And what is with Alonso playing every day? As bad as he's been he only has had 2 days off. That doesn't make any sense. His option vests at 550 at bats and he's well on his way to getting that. The Sox haven't shown an inkling to re-sign Abreu....can Hahn possibly be so lazy that he WANTS the option to vest so that he doesn't have to go out and find a first baseman?
Does Omar Vizquel speak Spanish?.........just wonderin'.
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  #101  
Old 05-11-2019, 09:40 AM
Frater Perdurabo Frater Perdurabo is offline
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I think I finally understand why every single decision and game result must absolutely be filtered through the “Rick Hahn is the epitome of incompetent malfeasance” hermeneutic.

It’s comic relief! 😂

I’m sorry it’s taken me so long to get the joke.
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  #102  
Old 05-11-2019, 05:27 PM
Hitmen77 Hitmen77 is offline
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I'm not convinced that this rebuild will succeed, but I don't think it's on the verge of collapse like some posters seems to think.

Question marks remain for sure. Concerns about depth in some positions? I totally agree. But, am I missing something? Is having a core of Cease, Kopech, Moncada, Anderson, Madrigal, Jimenez, Robert, and our #3 overall pick next month all that sobering? I mean, these all sound like high ceiling, potential all-star guys to me. I'm not even talking about the Zack Collins and Jake Burgers of the system - first round guys who we're *hoping* will become everyday MLB players.

When I see a core rotation taking shape of Cease-Kopech-Giolito*-Lopez, is that so horrible and destined for failure? (*of course, we're all waiting to see if Giolito's turn-around this year is for real). Starting pitching depth falls off after that with our best in-house options perhaps being Dunning (he's still promising despite TJS), Lambert, Flores, Pilkington. Hansen is a total wild card and I'm not counting on him at this point. I wish there were more options, but honest question: do other top farm systems have more depth pitching than this? Can someone provide a reasoned answer with specific examples and not just flame-throwing, unyielding bile at Sox management?


Is the idea of an infield of Moncada-Anderson-Madrigal so underwhelming as to bring out the pitchforks right now? Outfield/DH? Robert and Jimenez look like they could be monsters at the plate - we just have to see how they develop. As far as the other OF positions go, none of our prospects are screaming "future all-star" to me, but between L. Gonzalez, Basabe, Rutherford, Adolfo, and Walker (and perhaps even Bryce Bush), it's not like we have nothing but organizational filler on the farm for OFs and it's not a huge stretch to think that 1 or 2 of these guys will become an effective MLB player.


I think my bigger concern is player development as opposed to drafting ability. Like I said, I'm not convinced we'll have a happy ending here. But I still think it's a bit premature for the constant venom being spewed against the future of this franchise.
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  #103  
Old 05-12-2019, 02:28 PM
GoSox2K3 GoSox2K3 is offline
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Ivan Nova: Rick Hahn is so special.

Another lazy effort from the GM.
Yep, he should have been DFA'd after that May 1 start. No chance of any upside from that point on. Way past time to write him off as another Hahn massive failure.
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  #104  
Old 05-12-2019, 06:12 PM
Tragg Tragg is offline
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Yep, he should have been DFA'd after that May 1 start. No chance of any upside from that point on. Way past time to write him off as another Hahn massive failure.
On a good day, he's a 5th starter. Such a bargain for $9 million and a prospect.
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  #105  
Old 05-12-2019, 06:20 PM
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On a good day, he's a 5th starter. Such a bargain for $9 million and a prospect.
Yes it is at today's rates.
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