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  #106  
Old 10-01-2019, 04:11 PM
Mohoney Mohoney is offline
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Originally Posted by DumpJerry View Post
That is not my question. Machado was going to displace either Moncada at Third or Anderson. Those are the relevant comparisons.
And Moncada would have displaced Yolmer at 2B. Neither Moncada nor Anderson would have been out of the lineup.
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  #107  
Old 10-01-2019, 04:14 PM
Mohoney Mohoney is offline
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Originally Posted by A. Cavatica View Post
I think that being one game over .500 is the bare minimum acceptable outcome for next year. Any less and heads should roll.
Heads should have rolled yesterday. They didnít. That is really discouraging.
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  #108  
Old 10-01-2019, 04:24 PM
A. Cavatica A. Cavatica is offline
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Originally Posted by WhiteSox5187 View Post
The question was how he compared to Collins, so I looked at how he had done in the minors and when he was 24. Also, for what it's worth Flowers had a 2 WAR season in 2014, which is better than any contribution the Sox have gotten from catcher prior to this season.
And Flowers had been a negative WAR player for us in 2013.

Alex Avila put up 1.0 WAR for us at age 29. Flowers was a lot closer to that level in 2014 than a "core" player.

As for Collins, nobody's labeling him "core" yet, but he's younger, has at least as much power as Flowers and has an incredible batting eye.
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  #109  
Old 10-01-2019, 04:25 PM
A. Cavatica A. Cavatica is offline
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Originally Posted by Mohoney View Post
Heads should have rolled yesterday. They didnít. That is really discouraging.
Some should, but I didn't expect them to. Did you?
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  #110  
Old 10-01-2019, 04:25 PM
kobo kobo is offline
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Originally Posted by A. Cavatica View Post
Yes. The Sox should be accountable if they fail to execute their own plan.

They have been careful not to state their timetable publicly, but we know they may start to lose key players (Moncada/Giolito/Lopez) to free agency in 2024. And we know they originally considered Rodon part of the rebuild, and he hits free agency in 2022. It's impossible for me to believe their plan did not include contending in 2020.

Given that Rodon hasn't been healthy and they've had so many other injuries, they can be forgiven for rolling back the contention window to 2021. But they need to continue to improve in 2020. It's been forever since they had a winning season, and one would get them within spitting distance of contention.

Remember, Hahn has done very little to improve the team in the past year. He signed McCann (but also saddled us with Alonso and Jay and Herrera); he traded for Colome but was unable to flip him (or anyone else) for prospects. He hasn't made prospect-for-prospect trades to balance our positional depth, he hasn't found many keepers on the scrap heap.

In my view, he shouldn't get to take the next year off.
You are talking about all sorts of different things here but let's focus on the 'plan' you refer to. They have a rebuild plan but they haven't publicly stated the details of said plan, which you acknowledge, and somehow they need to be accountable for said plan even though no one outside of the organization knows the details of the plan. Makes sense.
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  #111  
Old 10-01-2019, 04:31 PM
kobo kobo is offline
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Originally Posted by Mohoney View Post
Heads should have rolled yesterday. They didnít. That is really discouraging.
Which heads should have rolled yesterday? Some of you live in some warped reality where evidently the last 30 years of how this organization operates does not exist which leads to comments like the one quoted. Some of you really need to accept that the way the Sox do business is not going to change until this team is no longer owned by Reinsdorf. There is literally nothing that we as fans can do that is going to change anything.
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  #112  
Old 10-01-2019, 04:35 PM
ChiSoxNationPres ChiSoxNationPres is online now
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Originally Posted by A. Cavatica View Post
Yes. The Sox should be accountable if they fail to execute their own plan.

They have been careful not to state their timetable publicly, but we know they may start to lose key players (Moncada/Giolito/Lopez) to free agency in 2024. And we know they originally considered Rodon part of the rebuild, and he hits free agency in 2022. It's impossible for me to believe their plan did not include contending in 2020.

Given that Rodon hasn't been healthy and they've had so many other injuries, they can be forgiven for rolling back the contention window to 2021. But they need to continue to improve in 2020. It's been forever since they had a winning season, and one would get them within spitting distance of contention.

Remember, Hahn has done very little to improve the team in the past year. He signed McCann (but also saddled us with Alonso and Jay and Herrera); he traded for Colome but was unable to flip him (or anyone else) for prospects. He hasn't made prospect-for-prospect trades to balance our positional depth, he hasn't found many keepers on the scrap heap.

In my view, he shouldn't get to take the next year off.
We have no clear idea of what the roster will be like yet for next year, what injuries will occur, and how Robert, Madrigal, Kopech, and Cease will do (which are out of Hahn's control). How can we put an exact number on success?

2019 year was to be a punted year and Jay/Alonso were not brought on to help win games this year, so 1 year contracts this last year literally don't matter for the future.

Yes, he signed McCann. Likely the future catcher for the next several years and made the all star team. He was great for 5/6 months of the season and looks to be a quality all around player moving forward.

He simply chose not to trade Colome, not was unable to. He looked at this year's FA class and saw that it was very thin with backend options. He opted to keep a proven closer with a clean injury history instead of trading him for a young minor league starter (Allard/Wentz) who would be a wildcard to even be a 4-5 on an MLB team in the future.

Prospect for prospect trades rarely happen. Can't blame Hahn for that.

Finding McCann and Marshall are pretty big wins for him in 2019 off the scrap heap.

The Sox will be better in 2020 by addition by subtraction alone. They played all of their games with basically 5+ innings of outs to score runs when the bottom half of the lineup was filled by some combo of Yolmer, Engel, Cordell, Collins, Rondon. Not to mention the top half of the lineup sprinkled with dead weight like Jay, Alonso, Castillo, Palka, etc.
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  #113  
Old 10-01-2019, 04:36 PM
Mohoney Mohoney is offline
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Originally Posted by DumpJerry View Post
Our 2B production should be fine if Madrigal lives up to 80% of his potential. Much less expensive than Machado and I'm willing to bet he actually runs out grounders.
When all youíre hitting is grounders, you tend to run them out.

We already have a guy with 80% of Nick Madrigalís potential. His name is Yolmer Sanchez. Replacing one with the other doesnít move the needle at all.

Madrigal has shown very minimal power throughout college and the minors. This is a red flag. That leaves him very little margin for error, and certainly not a 20% margin for error.

If that makes me a wet blanket, then Iíll own that.

Honestly, I would be fine with a trade centered around Madrigal that capitalizes on his top-50 value and passes that risk to another team. If Madrigal, one of the AA/AAA outfielders, and a bullpen arm or one of the recent pitcher draft picks can get me Whit Merrifield, Iím good with that.
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  #114  
Old 10-01-2019, 04:38 PM
Mohoney Mohoney is offline
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Originally Posted by A. Cavatica View Post
Some should, but I didn't expect them to. Did you?
I have no expectations about anything this team does anymore. Everything is either a pleasant or an unpleasant surprise.
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  #115  
Old 10-01-2019, 04:40 PM
Mohoney Mohoney is offline
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Originally Posted by kobo View Post
Which heads should have rolled yesterday? Some of you live in some warped reality where evidently the last 30 years of how this organization operates does not exist which leads to comments like the one quoted. Some of you really need to accept that the way the Sox do business is not going to change until this team is no longer owned by Reinsdorf. There is literally nothing that we as fans can do that is going to change anything.
Rick Renteria should not still be employed. That tells me itís more about keeping the ****ing sewing circle together than it is about winning. I should be allowed to be pissed off about that.
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  #116  
Old 10-01-2019, 04:41 PM
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DumpJerry DumpJerry is offline
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Originally Posted by HomeFish View Post
You're the one using some distant future event (the FA markets of the mid-2020's) to justify opposition to a move that would have had a big positive impact on the Sox in the near-term future.
I did?

I said nothing about future free agent markets. I was commenting on a poster's Nostradamus prediction (pulled out of thin air) of some of our players' future contract demands.
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  #117  
Old 10-01-2019, 04:44 PM
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DumpJerry DumpJerry is offline
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Originally Posted by Mohoney View Post
When all youíre hitting is grounders, you tend to run them out.
I was referring to Machado's lazy ass who cannot be bothered to break a sweat from time to time on a grounder.
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  #118  
Old 10-01-2019, 04:48 PM
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DumpJerry DumpJerry is offline
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Originally Posted by A. Cavatica View Post
They have been careful not to state their timetable publicly.
Just curious......can you post the links to the articles or press releases regarding the sports teams (expanding this beyond MLB to give you a chance at actually finding something) that expressed an explicit timetable for their rebuilds? I'm not talking about the usual "we expect to start winning in about four years" stuff they say, but the actual timetables.

I have plenty of time, don't rush.

Oh, it is impossible to set a timetable because guess who else is building up potential winners in a few years? All the other teams.
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  #119  
Old 10-01-2019, 05:34 PM
blurry blurry is offline
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Thank you. This arbitrary garbage is for sports radio calls.
Or perhaps we can consider the point to be a little more nuanced than simply casting it aside as a hot take. If the team finishes with less than 82 wins next season, it's time to fire someone. I don't know why fans of this team give management so much leeway when they've accomplished nothing in the last 20 seasons, with 1 year being the exception.

For pete's sake, the Cubs just fired a very good manager after winning 84 games and missing the playoffs for the first time in his career there. I think it's perfectly acceptable to expect more in what will be the 4th year of rebuilding.
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  #120  
Old 10-01-2019, 05:36 PM
blandman blandman is offline
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Originally Posted by ChiTownTrojan View Post
This has obviously been beaten to death, but my thought on the Machado "fiasco" is that a year ago, the Sox knew they were still 1-2 years away, regardless of which FAs were going to sign. They were willing to spend on Machado because the opportunity to lock up a guy of his age and ability doesn't come around very often. But they knew that basically the first year or two of the contract would be wasted, so there were limits in how high they were willing to go. They would have signed him for $250M, but not $300M.

I'm okay with the front office knowing there own situation and what the limits were. I'm hopeful that in an offseason where they were thinking more about contention, they would have been willing to go higher. Especially at a position of higher need, like SP. If not signing Machado last year means they have more flexibility to sign a top-tier starter, then I'm glad they didn't sign Machado.

Munch I know you disagree and you think this ownership is cheap and will never spend and that no free agents will ever sign here because who in their right mind would want to play for such a pathetic organization that isn't willing to overspend, etc. There's not much I can do to change your mind (and I'm not trying to), but I'm looking forward to see what this team is willing to do this offseason.

They're free to do something to change my mind at any time.
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