White Sox Interactive Forums
Minor Observations

Welcome
Go Back   White Sox Interactive Forums > Baseball Discussions > Minor Observations
Home Chat Stats Register Blogs FAQ Calendar Mark Forums Read


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #16  
Old 08-11-2005, 05:30 PM
maurice maurice is offline
WSI High Priest
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Bridgeport, Chicago, IL
Posts: 7,714
Default clarification

I am absolutely not implying anything about Gload's personal life. What I meant by "personal" is that the motivation apparently is not performanced-based. Gload's performance over the past 2 years clearly dictates that he and Baj deserve a spot on the 25-man roster over Guillen's close personal friends (read: Perez and Adkins). Come Sept., their performance absolutely dictates that they should have a spot on the expanded active roster.
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 08-11-2005, 05:30 PM
rdivaldi rdivaldi is offline
WSI Church Elder
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Chicago - South Loop
Posts: 4,448
Default

While I know most of you want Baj to be called up and be used as a late inning reliever, I am of the opinion that he's a AAAA pitcher. The guy really is a poor man's Matt Ginter. Slightly above average fastball with a slider that will get minor leaguers out, but major leaguers will more than likely crush. Adkins is the better choice for the roster IMO.

I appreciate the great job he's done in AAA, but until we clinch I'd keep him down there.
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 08-11-2005, 05:32 PM
maurice maurice is offline
WSI High Priest
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Bridgeport, Chicago, IL
Posts: 7,714
Default

If Baj has AAAA stuff, what do you call Adkins' stuff? Adkins can't even get AAA hitters out on a regular basis.

Nobody's saying that Baj should replace Politte, but Baj definitely deserves an extended look with some MLB team. His minor-league performance and, yes, even his "stuff" > the crap pitching in most bullpens.
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 08-12-2005, 09:02 AM
rdivaldi rdivaldi is offline
WSI Church Elder
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Chicago - South Loop
Posts: 4,448
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by maurice
If Baj has AAAA stuff, what do you call Adkins' stuff? Adkins can't even get AAA hitters out on a regular basis.

Nobody's saying that Baj should replace Politte, but Baj definitely deserves an extended look with some MLB team. His minor-league performance and, yes, even his "stuff" > the crap pitching in most bullpens.
I like the way Adkins goes after hitters, and his stuff is basically as good or better than Baj's IMO. I also think Adkins pitches have more movement on them, which gives him a significant advantage.

Baj nibbles at the corners with a slightly above average fastball and gets guys out with mediocre breaking stuff. I just see Baj getting crushed by major leaguers until he learns to go after guys more. They're not going to swing at his breaking stuff off the plate, and they're going to pound his fastball if he throws it in the zone.

It's not a popular opinion, but that's just the way I see it for the time being.
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 08-12-2005, 01:27 PM
maurice maurice is offline
WSI High Priest
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Bridgeport, Chicago, IL
Posts: 7,714
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by rdivaldi
I like the way Adkins goes after hitters
You mean by throwing strikes or something else about his approach? It's true that Adkins throws strikes, but the strikes are hit hard and often. Plus, it's not like Baj walks a batter per inning.

Quote:
his stuff is basically as good or better than Baj's IMO. I also think Adkins pitches have more movement on them, which gives him a significant advantage.
I have to disagree. Adkins throws fairly hard but has very little movement on his pitches. That's why he gives up so many hits while K'ing so few. Remember, in Adkins, we're talking about a player who never had any real success at any high level (AA, AAA, or MLB). In fact, he's actually regressed from his previous, mediocre performance.

What I see or what you see is pretty subjective, so let's look at the most relevant objective evidence. They played in the same league and faced the same hitters almost all of this year. During that time, Baj posted the following outstanding numbers which IMO reflect good "stuff": 10.7 K/9, .175 BAA, and only 3 HR allowed in an extreme hitter's park. I might be willing to dismiss these numbers on account of "bad hitters" if they were low-A-ball numbers, but that's not the case. Facing the very same hitters, Adkins' numbers were significantly worse across the board. This can't be a coincidence. It must reflect "stuff."

I really don't think your opinion is that unpopular. I just don't see the basis in the numbers or my own observations (I've seen both guys pitch as recently as this year).
Reply With Quote
  #21  
Old 08-12-2005, 02:26 PM
Ol' No. 2's Avatar
Ol' No. 2 Ol' No. 2 is offline
WSI High Priest
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Bullpen Sports Bar
Posts: 11,663
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by maurice
You mean by throwing strikes or something else about his approach? It's true that Adkins throws strikes, but the strikes are hit hard and often. Plus, it's not like Baj walks a batter per inning.



I have to disagree. Adkins throws fairly hard but has very little movement on his pitches. That's why he gives up so many hits while K'ing so few. Remember, in Adkins, we're talking about a player who never had any real success at any high level (AA, AAA, or MLB). In fact, he's actually regressed from his previous, mediocre performance.

What I see or what you see is pretty subjective, so let's look at the most relevant objective evidence. They played in the same league and faced the same hitters almost all of this year. During that time, Baj posted the following outstanding numbers which IMO reflect good "stuff": 10.7 K/9, .175 BAA, and only 3 HR allowed in an extreme hitter's park. I might be willing to dismiss these numbers on account of "bad hitters" if they were low-A-ball numbers, but that's not the case. Facing the very same hitters, Adkins' numbers were significantly worse across the board. This can't be a coincidence. It must reflect "stuff."

I really don't think your opinion is that unpopular. I just don't see the basis in the numbers or my own observations (I've seen both guys pitch as recently as this year).
Isn't there an element of apples and oranges here? Adkins was a starter in AAA while Bajenaru was a reliever. That's almost like comparing defensive stats between players at two different positions. Sure, they both have to get hitters out. But it's different when you have to pace yourself to go 6+ innings than if you know you're just there for one.
__________________

19 seasons, 9232 AB, 216 SO
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old 08-12-2005, 02:47 PM
maurice maurice is offline
WSI High Priest
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Bridgeport, Chicago, IL
Posts: 7,714
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ol' No. 2
Isn't there an element of apples and oranges here? Adkins was a starter in AAA while Bajenaru was a reliever. That's almost like comparing defensive stats between players at two different positions. Sure, they both have to get hitters out. But it's different when you have to pace yourself to go 6+ innings than if you know you're just there for one.
Maybe, but the difference in the numbers is huge.

Let's compare apples to apples and oranges to oranges. Baj has been one of the very best relievers at the highest minor-league levels for a while now. Adkins hasn't been better than mediocre as a starter at AAA and AA, and sometimes has been really, really bad (especially this year). He also has been outpitched by some of his fellow Knights' starters, even though their starting staff has been pretty damn weak overall. Even projected reliever Arnie Munoz has been much more effective as a starter than Adkins has been this season. Heck, (IIRC) Josh Freaking Stewart outpitched Adkins, and he got shipped off to Japan, while Adkins gets a callup.

I guess my bottom line is that Adkins is far worse than everybody else on our staff and can't even get AAA batters out, yet he gets chance after chance -- probably because Ozzie likes his personality and/or because KW traded Ray Durham for him. Meanwhile, Baj has done absolutely everything asked of him and excelled as a closer for the past 3 years or so, and has yet to receive an extended look. That's really unfair. Plenty of other relievers have received similar treatment from the Sox and went on to have solid pro careers. IMHO, Baj is the most eggregious example and deserves an opportunity somewhere -- certainly ahead of batting practice pitchers like Adkins.

I feel pretty much the same way about Perez v. Gload.
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old 08-12-2005, 03:17 PM
Ol' No. 2's Avatar
Ol' No. 2 Ol' No. 2 is offline
WSI High Priest
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Bullpen Sports Bar
Posts: 11,663
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by maurice
Maybe, but the difference in the numbers is huge.

Let's compare apples to apples and oranges to oranges. Baj has been one of the very best relievers at the highest minor-league levels for a while now. Adkins hasn't been better than mediocre as a starter at AAA and AA, and sometimes has been really, really bad (especially this year). He also has been outpitched by some of his fellow Knights' starters, even though their starting staff has been pretty damn weak overall. Even projected reliever Arnie Munoz has been much more effective as a starter than Adkins has been this season. Heck, (IIRC) Josh Freaking Stewart outpitched Adkins, and he got shipped off to Japan, while Adkins gets a callup.

I guess my bottom line is that Adkins is far worse than everybody else on our staff and can't even get AAA batters out, yet he gets chance after chance -- probably because Ozzie likes his personality and/or because KW traded Ray Durham for him. Meanwhile, Baj has done absolutely everything asked of him and excelled as a closer for the past 3 years or so, and has yet to receive an extended look. That's really unfair. Plenty of other relievers have received similar treatment from the Sox and went on to have solid pro careers. IMHO, Baj is the most eggregious example and deserves an opportunity somewhere -- certainly ahead of batting practice pitchers like Adkins.

I feel pretty much the same way about Perez v. Gload.
I can't disagree. If it was my choice, I'd have gone with Bajenaru, too. Maybe it's the devil they know vs. the devil they don't know. Adkins was at least modestly effective last season, while they really don't know how Bajenaru will perform at the major league level. But IMO, they should have given him a shot earlier in the season. It's getting too close to Sept 1 now to be experimenting. It's probably moot, since Adkins won't be on the playoff roster anyway.

And I've tried to give Perez the benefit of the doubt, but enough is enough already. About the only thing good I can say about him is that he can put the ball in play, so he does have value as a pinch hitter. He does have knack for making things happen in those situations. But it's not worth a roster spot. Bring up Gload.
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old 08-12-2005, 04:30 PM
chaerulez chaerulez is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Aurora, IL
Posts: 5,535
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by charlotteknights
The strong rumor around the clubhouse is that McCarthy, Borchard, and Anderson will be the only ones called up by Chicago. None of the others seem to think that they will be moving up. The Sox also signed Jim Bullinger to a minor league contract and are sending Aceves back to Birmingham. Gload feels strongly that he won't be getting a call up. I would like to see them add Gload and Baj to their list. I was surprised to hear that they didn't mention Diaz or Munoz either.
While I agree with those 3 as the ones that will be called up. I don't see why Harris or Gload wouldn't be brought up as well. Harris could be strictly a pinch runner and Gload can play 1B in games that Blum is already in at 3B or SS.
Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old 08-12-2005, 05:14 PM
nodiggity59 nodiggity59 is offline
WSI Personality
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 1,179
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by maurice
Maybe, but the difference in the numbers is huge.

Let's compare apples to apples and oranges to oranges. Baj has been one of the very best relievers at the highest minor-league levels for a while now. Adkins hasn't been better than mediocre as a starter at AAA and AA, and sometimes has been really, really bad (especially this year). He also has been outpitched by some of his fellow Knights' starters, even though their starting staff has been pretty damn weak overall. Even projected reliever Arnie Munoz has been much more effective as a starter than Adkins has been this season. Heck, (IIRC) Josh Freaking Stewart outpitched Adkins, and he got shipped off to Japan, while Adkins gets a callup.

I guess my bottom line is that Adkins is far worse than everybody else on our staff and can't even get AAA batters out, yet he gets chance after chance -- probably because Ozzie likes his personality and/or because KW traded Ray Durham for him. Meanwhile, Baj has done absolutely everything asked of him and excelled as a closer for the past 3 years or so, and has yet to receive an extended look. That's really unfair. Plenty of other relievers have received similar treatment from the Sox and went on to have solid pro careers. IMHO, Baj is the most eggregious example and deserves an opportunity somewhere -- certainly ahead of batting practice pitchers like Adkins.

I feel pretty much the same way about Perez v. Gload.
Um, Gagne has awful #s as a starter. I feel like there's minimal difference between the 2 either way, though Baj IMO haas a slight edge. But for this time and this team adkins is better cause he can eat more innings, which is what we need.
Reply With Quote
  #26  
Old 08-12-2005, 06:20 PM
maurice maurice is offline
WSI High Priest
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Bridgeport, Chicago, IL
Posts: 7,714
Default Holy crap!

I can't believe somebody just compared Jon "BP" Adkins to Eric "50 Saves A Season" Gagne. Gagne was a failed MLB starter. He was a very good starter in AAA and AA, posting a sub-3.00 ERA and a great K/9 (like Baj). Adkins, OTOH, failed as a minor-league starter. He has a cumulative ERA near 5 in AAA and AA, and way fewer Ks than IP.

Ozzie's "innings" argument is BS, as evidenced by Adkins' grand total of 1 IP and the fact that the Sox pen has pitched the fewest innings in MLB, IIRC. The only problem with our outstanding BP is Ozzie's nonsensical insistance on going lefty-righty-lefty-righty for no apparent reason.
Reply With Quote
  #27  
Old 08-13-2005, 04:20 AM
1stPlaceWhiteSox 1stPlaceWhiteSox is offline
New At WSI
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Elk Grove Village
Posts: 3
Default The Legend of Joe Bro

I can't wait to see Joe Bro (Borchard) again. I miss his 510 foot concourse rocket shots and that .180 batting average. I saw that homerun during a rain delay segment on CSN. The right fielder needed a visa to catch that ball.
Reply With Quote
  #28  
Old 08-13-2005, 05:08 PM
rdivaldi rdivaldi is offline
WSI Church Elder
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Chicago - South Loop
Posts: 4,448
Default

I can't dispute the numbers between Adkins and Baj, I'm going on my observations only. I just don't like the way Baj throws the ball. His fastball is ok, he nibbles an awful lot, and his breaking stuff is pretty flat. I just can't project him being effective at the major league level. Adkins has had success at the major league level, and as mentioned before, has the stamina to go more than 1 or 2 innings.

I think it was the correct move to bring him up.
Reply With Quote
  #29  
Old 08-14-2005, 03:25 PM
TaylorStSox TaylorStSox is offline
WSI Church Elder
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Washington & Talman
Posts: 4,287
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by rowand33
with Anderson and Borchard coming up...

how can Timo be on the team and Gload not on the team?!

I'm also amazed by Adkins over Baj.
Adkins over Baj was a no brainer. The team wanted somebody that could go long and eat innings. We're in the dog days now. Pitchers are tired. We're facing some offensive power houses and the chance of our pitchers going more than 6 innings is slim.
__________________

Quote:
Originally Posted by shoota
I'm not counting this homerun or his 3 RBI from today's game because of the game situation. I'm not counting his pinch hit solo homerun in a blowout win in Colorado. In my book, Crede has 2 less home runs than his statistics show, 4 less RBI, and one less walk (the one where he pinch hit for Uribe after coming in with a 3-0 count and taking one pitch).
Reply With Quote
  #30  
Old 08-15-2005, 12:20 PM
maurice maurice is offline
WSI High Priest
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Bridgeport, Chicago, IL
Posts: 7,714
Default

Quote:
The team wanted somebody that could go long and eat innings.
Yes, that's what Ozzie said. The problem is that he is and was wrong. Adkins' alleged inning-eating ability was (1) not needed and (2) not used. You can not successfully argue that Baj is incapable of pitching a grand total of 3.2 innings in 2 weeks. Moreover, at least one other player would have been much more valuable during this period than Adkins. Remember, Perez started 6 games for the Sox during this time (going 3-22 and often batting 5th), while Gload raked in the minors and Adkins sat on his ass in the pen spitting seeds.

More likely, Ozzie wanted to promote his buddy and to avoid embarrassing himself again by running out of relievers, because he pitched Cotts and Politte for .1 inning each in the 7th inning again.

Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



Forum Jump




All times are GMT -5. The time now is 12:12 PM.




Design by: Michelle

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Site-specific editorial/photos Copyright ©2001 - 2008 White Sox Interactive. All rights reserved.