White Sox Interactive Forums
What's The Score?

Welcome
Go Back   White Sox Interactive Forums > Baseball Discussions > What's The Score?
Home Chat Stats Register Blogs FAQ Calendar Mark Forums Read


Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #76  
Old 07-23-2018, 11:34 PM
shingo10 shingo10 is offline
WSI Personality
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 1,341
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mohoney View Post
Maybe the Rockies are interested in taking a risk on Avi? Gerardo Parra is giving them nothing in terms of power.

I'm afraid to ask but it doesn't look like he's in the lineup tonight...please tell me he is not hurt again?
__________________
TWTW
  #77  
Old 07-24-2018, 02:23 AM
Nellie_Fox's Avatar
Nellie_Fox Nellie_Fox is offline
Official Professor
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: North Mankato, MN
Posts: 16,850
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by shingo10 View Post
I'm afraid to ask but it doesn't look like he's in the lineup tonight...please tell me he is not hurt again?
Just wasn't feeling well. Came in late in the game.
__________________

"Nellie Fox, that little son of a gun, was always on base and was a great hit-and-run man. He sprayed hits all over."
Yogi Berra in the New York Sunday News (July 12, 1970)
  #78  
Old 07-24-2018, 09:26 PM
Tragg Tragg is offline
WSI Prelate
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Gonzales LA
Posts: 15,071
Blog Entries: 2
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by shingo10 View Post
Well if you are going to trade prospects the only thing you can net is a "veteran" so that doesn't seem like a sound strategy.
You can trade Prospects for prospects.
That's why you always take the best talent available.
If the idea is just to wait until all of these prospects develop into above average major leaguers, it will not happen. They have to make some moves - Cubs, astros, Brewers, As, all did.
What these contenders haven't done, of course, is make the type of trade Hahn did in 2014-2016, that severely damaged the organization.

Last edited by Tragg; 07-24-2018 at 09:38 PM.
  #79  
Old 07-24-2018, 09:39 PM
ChiSoxNationPres ChiSoxNationPres is offline
WSI Personality
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Chicago
Posts: 857
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tragg View Post
Not at all.
Prospects for prospects.
That's why you always take the best talent available.
The trades for Shields, Samardzija, and Frazier were so damaging to the org., that Rick Hahn, should never, ever make similar trade again.
The Shields trade sucked obviously, in hindsight. But the Samardzija and Frazier trades were good ones at the time for what they were trying to do, they just didn't play as well as they had in the previous season. Those 2 are far from damaging to the organization.
  #80  
Old 07-25-2018, 12:00 AM
Domeshot17 Domeshot17 is offline
WSI High Priest
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Plainfield
Posts: 11,816
Default

The Shields trade sucked, but it’s all hindsight. Tatis was an unknown at the time.

The Frazier deal is ****ing hyperbole. Losing Micah Johnson, Trayce Thompson and Montas did not hurt us in any way shape or form.

And the Shark deal...what did we lose? The most valuable part of that entire trade is Zack Burdi...
__________________
  #81  
Old 07-25-2018, 07:50 AM
DonnieDarko DonnieDarko is offline
WSI Church Elder
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: North side, 60618
Posts: 2,600
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Domeshot17 View Post
The Shields trade sucked, but itís all hindsight. Tatis was an unknown at the time.

The Frazier deal is ****ing hyperbole. Losing Micah Johnson, Trayce Thompson and Montas did not hurt us in any way shape or form.

And the Shark deal...what did we lose? The most valuable part of that entire trade is Zack Burdi...
Burdi was drafted by the Sox.
__________________

2014 PtC Score: 1
  #82  
Old 07-25-2018, 08:12 AM
Mohoney Mohoney is online now
WSI High Priest
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Palos Hills, IL
Posts: 9,780
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by DonnieDarko
Burdi was drafted by the Sox.
With the compensatory pick that came from losing Samardzija to free agency after he rejected a qualifying offer...
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by Horsemaster Fred
This is the major leagues so get it how you live and letís fight tomorrow.
  #83  
Old 07-25-2018, 09:40 AM
Tragg Tragg is offline
WSI Prelate
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Gonzales LA
Posts: 15,071
Blog Entries: 2
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChiSoxNationPres View Post
But the Samardzija and Frazier trades were good ones at the time for what they were trying to do, they just didn't play as well as they had in the previous season. Those 2 are far from damaging to the organization.
What were they trying to do? Contend with only 3 or 4 starting pitchers, no CF, C, 3B, RF, LF, 2B, and an aging SS. So they trade young players to plug 2 or 3 holes, and sign mediocre free agents, put together a pretty solid pen, and roll the dice with Noesi and the like.
What they were trying to do didn't make any sense.
And thus these trades dug the holes further.
Neither Frazier nor Samardzija under-performed. Frazier was never anything special - low OBP and he banged a bunch of homers in a ballpark that was perfect for him, and he had a horrible 2nd half before the Sox traded for him. He basically replicated that with the Sox, but the park wasn't as friendly. Samardzija was a solid pitcher, pitched solidly for the Sox and still is solid.
Both were on short-term contracts.
There was an opportunity cost in players and time that were wasted. The Reds have 2 starters and the As 3 players on their 40/25.
Thankfully they are trying to rebuild this operation: Just don't repeat the mistakes of the past.

Last edited by Tragg; 07-25-2018 at 09:57 AM.
  #84  
Old 07-25-2018, 09:58 AM
mzh mzh is offline
WSI Church Elder
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Chicago
Posts: 3,345
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tragg View Post
What were they trying to do? Contend with only 3 or 4 starting pitchers, no CF, C, 3B, RF, LF, 2B, and an aging SS. So they trade young players to plug 2 or 3 holes, and sign mediocre free agents and roll the dice with Noesi and the like.
What they were trying to do didn't make any sense.
And thus these trades dug the holes further.
Neither Frazier nor Samardzija under-performed. Frazier was never anything special - low OBP and he banged a bunch of homers in a ballpark that was perfect for him, and he had a horrible 2nd half before the Sox traded for him. Samardzija was a solid pitcher, pitched solidly for the Sox and still is solid. But he had a fluke year that fooled the White Sox brass.
The Reds have 2 starters from the Frazier trade. The As still have 3 viable players all of whom are on their 40 and have been on their 25 in 2018. And these As are the bottom players on the roster, but remember these are the White Sox that didn't need Semien, but are trying to win with Conor Gillsapie.
There was an opportunity cost in players and time that were wasted.
This is ridiculous. We're seriously crying about these deals? With this poorly thought out revisionist history? They had two of the top 20 starters in baseball and all stars in the infield and outfield. The depth wasn't there, no, but that by no means indicates that those trades had much more than a marginal impact either now or then.

1) Samardzija had averaged 200 innings and a 3.70 ERA the three years before going to the White Sox. No, Hahn wasn't "fooled" by a fluke year, and yes, he underperformed.

2) The Reds got exactly one starting player out of the Frazier deal, and he came from the Dodgers.

3) You're high if you think any of those Oakland players are much more than marginal. Josh Phegley is not a Major League player. Chris Bassitt and Frankie Montas have a total of 15 decent starts between them (a number that was a big fat zero before this season), neither of them can stay healthy, and they're only even making starts to begin with because Oakland's entire rotation got hurt.

4) Marcus Semien is irrelevant. When they traded him, he was 25 years old with stone hands and a bat 10% worse than average. Tim Anderson is and has been a superior player from the moment he called up.

5) In case I'm not getting the point across, not a single one of those super exciting potential superstars you're upset they traded would have done a damn thing to help them win in 2015 or 2016. There are plenty of reasons to be upset or not trust the organization; the fact that they traded Trayce Thompson is not one of them.
  #85  
Old 07-25-2018, 10:18 AM
Domeshot17 Domeshot17 is offline
WSI High Priest
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Plainfield
Posts: 11,816
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tragg View Post
What were they trying to do? Contend with only 3 or 4 starting pitchers, no CF, C, 3B, RF, LF, 2B, and an aging SS. So they trade young players to plug 2 or 3 holes, and sign mediocre free agents, put together a pretty solid pen, and roll the dice with Noesi and the like.
What they were trying to do didn't make any sense.
And thus these trades dug the holes further.
Neither Frazier nor Samardzija under-performed. Frazier was never anything special - low OBP and he banged a bunch of homers in a ballpark that was perfect for him, and he had a horrible 2nd half before the Sox traded for him. He basically replicated that with the Sox, but the park wasn't as friendly. Samardzija was a solid pitcher, pitched solidly for the Sox and still is solid.
Both were on short-term contracts.
There was an opportunity cost in players and time that were wasted. The Reds have 2 starters and the As 3 players on their 40/25.
Thankfully they are trying to rebuild this operation: Just don't repeat the mistakes of the past.
I think honestly you would make your point much better if you just said I don't think Hahn is a good GM and therefore I don't trust him to do his job and rebuild this team. That I can understand and respect.

But this hyperbole about how devastating the Shark and Frazier trades were is just laughable. We did not deal 1 impact player for either.

Everyone knows the Shields trade was a total disaster, but not one person at the time had Tatis even in the top 150 let a lone near the top 10 in the game. The best you can find on him around that trade is his size will likely push him to 3b but he may grow into an impact bat with his size.

You could literally read that scouting report on half the international signings every year. The Padres took a lottery ticket and it hit the jackpot. We have to hope some of ours do the same.
  #86  
Old 07-25-2018, 10:30 AM
kittle42 kittle42 is offline
WSI Prelate
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Lakeview
Posts: 22,942
Default

The number of posts I can't see on this site increases by the day; and I thought things couldn't get worse than when hundreds of posts a night flooded postgame threads calling for the end of the world every night.
__________________
Ridiculousness across all sports:

(1) "You have no valid opinion because you never played the game."
(2) "Stats are irrelevant. This guy just doesn't know how to win."
  #87  
Old 07-25-2018, 11:07 AM
blurry blurry is offline
WSI Regular
 
Join Date: Apr 2017
Posts: 487
Default

The Tatis Jr / Shields trade hand wringing is getting bad.

NOBODY knew the former would get this good, this quickly. We lost a trade and nothing will change that.
  #88  
Old 07-25-2018, 11:17 AM
ChiSoxNationPres ChiSoxNationPres is offline
WSI Personality
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Chicago
Posts: 857
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by mzh View Post
This is ridiculous. We're seriously crying about these deals? With this poorly thought out revisionist history? They had two of the top 20 starters in baseball and all stars in the infield and outfield. The depth wasn't there, no, but that by no means indicates that those trades had much more than a marginal impact either now or then.

1) Samardzija had averaged 200 innings and a 3.70 ERA the three years before going to the White Sox. No, Hahn wasn't "fooled" by a fluke year, and yes, he underperformed.

2) The Reds got exactly one starting player out of the Frazier deal, and he came from the Dodgers.

3) You're high if you think any of those Oakland players are much more than marginal. Josh Phegley is not a Major League player. Chris Bassitt and Frankie Montas have a total of 15 decent starts between them (a number that was a big fat zero before this season), neither of them can stay healthy, and they're only even making starts to begin with because Oakland's entire rotation got hurt.

4) Marcus Semien is irrelevant. When they traded him, he was 25 years old with stone hands and a bat 10% worse than average. Tim Anderson is and has been a superior player from the moment he called up.

5) In case I'm not getting the point across, not a single one of those super exciting potential superstars you're upset they traded would have done a damn thing to help them win in 2015 or 2016. There are plenty of reasons to be upset or not trust the organization; the fact that they traded Trayce Thompson is not one of them.
Thanks you for saving me the time to respond. Couldn't have said it better myself.
  #89  
Old 07-25-2018, 11:21 AM
Tragg Tragg is offline
WSI Prelate
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Gonzales LA
Posts: 15,071
Blog Entries: 2
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Domeshot17 View Post
You could literally read that scouting report on half the international signings every year. The Padres took a lottery ticket and it hit the jackpot. We have to hope some of ours do the same.
Well, notwithstanding that very house-friendly description of the trade, the Sox have traded several of players at Shields level, with more to come. And Shields is pitching about as well now as he was then, and has less of a contract albatross around him. Let's make some luck.
There was a major opportunity cost 2014-2016, including using nearly every trade chit they had for 2 slightly above average players on 1/2 year contracts, leaving multiple holes on the team. The Sox major weakness was below replacement level talent at multiple positions. Those trades did not address the problem, and depleted the resources to address the problem (opportunity cost). This is also why I want to keep guys like Yolmer and Leury - today's version of them would have helped those teams significantly.
The result was the need for a complete teardown, which thankfully they decided to do. And no complaints about what they've done thusfar.

Last edited by Tragg; 07-25-2018 at 12:20 PM.
  #90  
Old 07-25-2018, 12:33 PM
Domeshot17 Domeshot17 is offline
WSI High Priest
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Plainfield
Posts: 11,816
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tragg View Post
Well, notwithstanding that very house-friendly description of the trade, the Sox have traded several of players at Shields level, with more to come. And Shields is pitching about as well now as he was then, and has less of a contract albatross around him. Let's make some luck.
There was a major opportunity cost 2014-2016, including using nearly every trade chit they had for 2 slightly above average players on 1/2 year contracts, leaving multiple holes on the team. The Sox major weakness was below replacement level talent at multiple positions. Those trades did not address the problem, and depleted the resources to address the problem (opportunity cost). This is also why I want to keep guys like Yolmer and Leury - today's version of them would have helped those teams significantly.
The result was the need for a complete teardown, which thankfully they decided to do. And no complaints about what they've done thusfar.
For me, I am a Hahn backer for now. From what I can tell, the way he GM's and the way Kenny GM's are very different. 14-16 felt like the Kenny / JR Directive of put fans in seats, try and win. It failed.

I love the new draft approach, tools over athleticism, loud tools. What scares me is how badly we develop talent. We are absolutely terrible at it. Getz is said to be a wizard, but if he is from the Buddy Bell school, is he just wizarding the same useless magic that doesn't get results?

Time will tell.
Closed Thread


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



Forum Jump




All times are GMT -5. The time now is 05:45 AM.




Design by: Michelle

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Site-specific editorial/photos Copyright ©2001 - 2008 White Sox Interactive. All rights reserved.