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  #91  
Old 07-25-2018, 02:11 PM
ChiSoxNationPres ChiSoxNationPres is offline
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Originally Posted by Domeshot17 View Post
For me, I am a Hahn backer for now. From what I can tell, the way he GM's and the way Kenny GM's are very different. 14-16 felt like the Kenny / JR Directive of put fans in seats, try and win. It failed.

I love the new draft approach, tools over athleticism, loud tools. What scares me is how badly we develop talent. We are absolutely terrible at it. Getz is said to be a wizard, but if he is from the Buddy Bell school, is he just wizarding the same useless magic that doesn't get results?

Time will tell.
It's difficult to properly evaluate the extent of how bad the organization develops talent because the drafting of talent has been so terrible. When you constantly have a bottom of the league farm system, with the only talent being mostly being "athletes", hard to develop something out of nothing. That pretty much only goes for the hitting prospects.

Side note, I do think in this whole discussion that their development of pitchers has been a strong suit and not enough credit is given there.
  #92  
Old 07-25-2018, 02:37 PM
Frater Perdurabo Frater Perdurabo is offline
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As Sox Machine's Jim Margalus writes today,



Quote:
...it strikes me that all six American League contenders have added to their pitching staffs. The National League is a little slower in this regard, so the White Sox still may find suitors, especially since the bulk of these deals have caught the rumormongers by surprise. If I had to guess, Iíd wager the reliever market has tilted toward the Sox while the starter market has moves to go, but itís more fog than smoke out there.

I've preached this a lot, but I really hope Hahn can package as many of our chips as possible in one deal for a higher ranked prospect (like last year's deal for Rutherford and Clarkin), rather than multiple trades netting multiple lower-ranked/unranked projects, if only because its easier to scour the top ends of clubs' system than sift through the detritus.


As such, Hahn should set his sights on trying to acquire prospects like Arizona's RHP Jon Duplantier, 1B Pavin Smith; Atlanta's LHP Kolby Allard, LHP Max Fried, 3B Austin Riley; Colorado's 3B Colton Welker; the Dodgers' C Keibert Ruiz, RHP Mitchell White, RHP Dennis Santana; Philadelphia's RHP Adonis Medina; or Pittsburgh's RHP Shane Baz, or 3B Ke'Bryan Hayes.
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  #93  
Old 07-25-2018, 02:45 PM
Tragg Tragg is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Domeshot17 View Post
I love the new draft approach, tools over athleticism, loud tools. What scares me is how badly we develop talent. We are absolutely terrible at it. Getz is said to be a wizard, but if he is from the Buddy Bell school, is he just wizarding the same useless magic that doesn't get results?

Time will tell.
I see it the opposite. Of course I seem to see everything the opposite of people around here these days.
I believe that the drafting and talent evaluation has been the problem.
Getz came from outside the organization. maybe he spent a little time with Bell but not much. I think he's done a good job.
Hostetler, on the other hand, has been with the Sox for nearly 2 decades (he left for a couple of years and returned). I don't see a big change in the draft other than more college players. I can't judge his performance until another year or so when the players should be matriculating into the majors.

Tatis wasn't a failure to develop - it was a failure evaluate. San Diego didn't develop Tatis in 2 months; the Sox developed him and he blew up with the Padres.

Teams like the Astros excel at evaluation (they excel at both). Heck they get Alvarez (top 50 prospect) for the essentially bad pitcher Josh Fields in a slick July 2016 move where they trade for a prospect while still in contention.
You make your breaks.

Last edited by Tragg; 07-25-2018 at 02:57 PM.
  #94  
Old 07-25-2018, 05:17 PM
Domeshot17 Domeshot17 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tragg View Post
I see it the opposite. Of course I seem to see everything the opposite of people around here these days.
I believe that the drafting and talent evaluation has been the problem.
Getz came from outside the organization. maybe he spent a little time with Bell but not much. I think he's done a good job.
Hostetler, on the other hand, has been with the Sox for nearly 2 decades (he left for a couple of years and returned). I don't see a big change in the draft other than more college players. I can't judge his performance until another year or so when the players should be matriculating into the majors.

Tatis wasn't a failure to develop - it was a failure evaluate. San Diego didn't develop Tatis in 2 months; the Sox developed him and he blew up with the Padres.

Teams like the Astros excel at evaluation (they excel at both). Heck they get Alvarez (top 50 prospect) for the essentially bad pitcher Josh Fields in a slick July 2016 move where they trade for a prospect while still in contention.
You make your breaks.
Its all opinion, but Tatis never really played for the Sox minor league system. He didn't even blow up until his 2nd year in SD. When they signed him he was not a top 20 International prospect.
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  #95  
Old 07-26-2018, 10:50 AM
rdivaldi rdivaldi is offline
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Originally Posted by Domeshot17 View Post
Its all opinion, but Tatis never really played for the Sox minor league system. He didn't even blow up until his 2nd year in SD. When they signed him he was not a top 20 International prospect.

Agreed. Tatis never played one inning for the White Sox, nor was he one of the top prospects when he signed. The bellyaching over Tatis is somewhat understandable, but it was probably time to move on about a year ago...
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  #96  
Old 07-26-2018, 11:17 AM
Domeshot17 Domeshot17 is offline
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Originally Posted by rdivaldi View Post
Agreed. Tatis never played one inning for the White Sox, nor was he one of the top prospects when he signed. The bellyaching over Tatis is somewhat understandable, but it was probably time to move on about a year ago...
Tatis was not bad eval or bad development, it was nothing more than bad luck.
  #97  
Old 07-26-2018, 11:57 AM
Tragg Tragg is offline
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He was a top 30 international prospect signed for $825K. It's not like he blew up 2 years after the trade - it was 2 months.
There is no way you trade a legit prospect, which he was, in a salary dump transaction, which is all Shields was worth at the time.
There was a systematic failure...and the question is whether it has been addressed.
That he turned into a top 5 is luck - but you make trades like this for players for whom you should get nothing of value, and you make your own luck. Or, in the Sox case, you make your own bad luck.

Last edited by Tragg; 07-26-2018 at 12:11 PM.
  #98  
Old 07-26-2018, 12:16 PM
mzh mzh is offline
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Originally Posted by Tragg View Post
He was a top 30 international prospect signed for $825K. It's not like he blew up 2 years after the trade - it was 2 months.
There is no way you trade a legit prospect, which he was, in a salary dump transaction, which is all Shields was worth at the time.
There was a systematic failure...and the question is whether it has been addressed.
That he turned into a top 5 is luck - but you make trades like this for players for whom you should get nothing of value, and you make your own luck. Or, in the Sox case, you make your own bad luck.
Here are three respectable lists of the White Sox top prospects following 2015 or entering the 2016 season. Tatis appears nowhere. We all know how awful the system was at that point. He was a complete afterthought.

http://m.mlb.com/prospects/2015/?list=cws

https://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/eval...ago-white-sox/

http://www.chicagonow.com/future-sox...016-full-list/

The revisionism is coming from your end. If they trade a guy like him 100 times, he probably turns out to be nothing 99% of the time.
  #99  
Old 07-26-2018, 12:16 PM
Frater Perdurabo Frater Perdurabo is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tragg View Post
There was a systematic failure...has it been addressed?
Or is it just a decade of bad luck.
None of the above. Most of the systemic problems have been addressed: draft cheapness, drafting athletes with low floors and low hitting tools, Doug Wilder scandal, rushing prospects to the majors and/or rushing them to use as trade bait in an effort to ďwin now.Ē

The one systemic problem we cannot overcome is JRís emphasis on loyalty over accountability - and thatís not on KW or Hahn.

Tatis didnít play a single game in the Sox system; itís not that they mis-evaluated him; they didnít have an opportunity to evaluate him. I suspect the Padres really wanted him, got beat by the Sox during the international signing period, and saw a chance to get him in the trade. The Sox probably deemed him expendable because they had Tim Anderson, and Hahn very much wanted a veteran starter to solidify the rotation. The bigger scouting failure in that trade was either under-estimating or mid-diagnosing Shieldsí struggles.
  #100  
Old 07-26-2018, 12:26 PM
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This thread has gone completely off the rails. Feel free to take this discussion about whether Sox management is or has ever been bad at their jobs elsewhere.

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