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  #16  
Old 07-27-2019, 08:28 AM
Mohoney Mohoney is offline
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Originally Posted by harwar View Post
It seems to me that they rush along some of these guys a bit too much . what was the harm in letting him pitch at the AAA level this year . i didn't believe any of that, "he's so good, that he's bored" stuff . guys like Cease used to spend time learning their craft in the minors, before being thrown to the big league hitters . i guess that the game has changed so much, and these guys will just have to grow up real fast, and i'll have to adjust my way of thinking also, i suppose . AJ Reed just looks like more of Yonder Alonso to me, but i don't suppose that it makes much difference at this time.
Maybe they promoted Cease because they think he can learn more by throwing to McCann and working with Cooper? Maybe they think that getting the jitters out of the way this year will make things go better for him next year? Maybe itís a service time thing to avoid Cease, Robert, and Madrigal all potentially hitting free agency at the same time?

There are a lot of possible reasons, and Iím fine with them.
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  #17  
Old 07-27-2019, 08:31 AM
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Chez Chez is offline
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I was at the game and was wondering what the broadcasters had to say when with the bases loaded in the second, Jay caught a flyball in shallow left (running towards the infield) and failed to throw home. Inexcusable mental error. I'm guessing that he lost track of the fact that there was a runner on third.

After the second, Cease settled down and looked good.
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  #18  
Old 07-27-2019, 08:45 AM
nsolo nsolo is offline
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What boggles my mind is how a smaller market team like the Twins can trot out highly competitive teams that year after year always seen to have our number.

Do they trade better, have a better farm system, better scouts, all the above? Are we that bad at identifying and developing talent? Talent that was sold to us as highly touted prospects.

Did the Twins complete better trades or obtain better draft selections? Are they just plain better as developing talent? Can our club improve its minor league coaching and scouting talent to help along young players?

To me, it is frustrating to see at this timeline in the rebuild such a poor performance from what was once one of the best collection of future prospects in the sport.

This concludes my rant.
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  #19  
Old 07-27-2019, 09:33 AM
KenBerryGrab KenBerryGrab is offline
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Originally Posted by Chez View Post
I was at the game and was wondering what the broadcasters had to say when with the bases loaded in the second, Jay caught a flyball in shallow left (running towards the infield) and failed to throw home. Inexcusable mental error. I'm guessing that he lost track of the fact that there was a runner on third.

After the second, Cease settled down and looked good.
Farmio and DJ dwelled on that a little. The near miss on yet another collision may have played a role.

They also said Cease was getting squeezed on the curve because of its bigger break. "Youth is being served here at the big league level, friends."
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  #20  
Old 07-27-2019, 09:42 AM
Tragg Tragg is offline
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Originally Posted by nsolo View Post
What boggles my mind is how a smaller market team like the Twins can trot out highly competitive teams that year after year always seen to have our number.

Do they trade better, have a better farm system, better scouts, all the above? Are we that bad at identifying and developing talent? Talent that was sold to us as highly touted prospects.
1 Yes - all of the above
2 Yes - pretty much. Maybe it's improving, but little tangible evidence yet.
3 The highly touted prospects are still very good and basically worthy of their toutage. But these guys were acquired through trading top level vets with many year on their contracts or top 5 draft choices with 1 international signing (Robert). A lot of nothingness so far beyond the highly touted. Pitching particularly lacking.

Last edited by Tragg; 07-27-2019 at 10:07 AM.
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  #21  
Old 07-27-2019, 10:52 AM
slavko slavko is offline
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You don't know if that was Renteria or Jay bunting on his own. In Thursday's game, Garcia sacrificed Engel to third in the third with the team down by two, a day after the Sox lost after not getting the go-ahead run from second to third in the seventh. I don't know if that is coincidence.

It's possible Renteria stressed on players the importance of moving the leadoff double (or its equivalecy) to third in close games. Some managers order the bunt, which certainly seems odd in the third inning down by two runs. Some managers give players the option of bunting to get the runner over because moving the runner over was their priority. I can see an emphasis on getting the runner over after Wednesday night's game. Either way it would put Renteria in more of a developmental mode, almost a spring-training mode, than a regular season mode, probably not as much Friday as Thursday.

I heard Jerry Manuel say on the radio around 2002 or 2003 that he didn't order bunting the runner from second to third but gave players the option. Of course, players given an option of not being charged with a time at bat for giving themselves up are more likely to sacrifice if they aren't confident in their ability to drive the ball to right.

It's also possible that Garcia on Thursday and Jay tonight were bunting, on their own, for hits.

In any case, Cease continues not to impress me. He isn't proving to be the gifted kid who was failing to be challenged in the developmental program. If he was the kid who believed he was gifted and didn't feel the need to put the effort into the developmental program, maybe he would better appreciate Charlotte as a challenge if the Sox were to send him down. I hate to say he was rushed because that puts the blame on the organization. In his first two starts, he gave up runs in the first and later. In his last two starts he gave up runs in the second and nothing more. All have been to opponents he hasn't previously faced. It's a strange pattern, and not one from which positives are easy to extract. If he's having problems when teams put him into the stretch, that is not a small issue.

The Sox still had a chance to get back in the game, two on and no one out with Abreu representing the tying run in the third. But the power of Engel would account for all the scoring tonight. Regardless of the offense, the starting pitching was disappointing.
Pretty sure Garcia was bunting on his own 2 days ago, 2 runs down. McEwing had ahold of him in the dugout afterwards. Even if we couldn't hear the parental lecture.
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  #22  
Old 07-27-2019, 11:14 AM
LITTLE NELL LITTLE NELL is offline
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This post All Star performance by the Sox has really been depressing and has put a damper on my thinking that we will be a contender next year, there is still a lot of work to be done and money to spend.
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  #23  
Old 07-27-2019, 11:57 AM
Mohoney Mohoney is offline
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Originally Posted by LITTLE NELL View Post
This post All Star performance by the Sox has really been depressing and has put a damper on my thinking that we will be a contender next year, there is still a lot of work to be done and money to spend.
Indeed there is. It will get better, though. Our 1st rounder this year is already the #23 prospect in all of baseball, and he is the #1 1B prospect in all of baseball. Punting on 2020 may be worth it if he is ready by 2021.

Moncada, Jimenez, Robert, Vaughn. Thatís the type of high-end talent needed to win nowadays. Guys with 60-65 tools, not 50-55 tools.
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  #24  
Old 07-27-2019, 02:37 PM
blandman blandman is online now
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Originally Posted by LITTLE NELL View Post
This post All Star performance by the Sox has really been depressing and has put a damper on my thinking that we will be a contender next year, there is still a lot of work to be done and money to spend.

Pre-break was a bit of a mirage, as we had a really easy schedule. Our second half is rough. Granted...we're also playing bad. But injuries are a part of that. We're not this bad, but we also weren't as good as our record after the break. Overall this is still one of the worst teams in baseball, and our run differential is third worst in all of baseball. We're regressing to the mean, so to speak.

But this year isn't about competing, it's about the individual pieces that are the core of the rebuild. And so far, only Lopez had bombed. And that looks like it might be turning around.
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  #25  
Old 07-27-2019, 02:59 PM
TDog TDog is online now
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Originally Posted by blandman View Post
Pre-break was a bit of a mirage, as we had a really easy schedule. Our second half is rough. Granted...we're also playing bad. But injuries are a part of that. We're not this bad, but we also weren't as good as our record after the break. Overall this is still one of the worst teams in baseball, and our run differential is third worst in all of baseball. We're regressing to the mean, so to speak.

But this year isn't about competing, it's about the individual pieces that are the core of the rebuild. And so far, only Lopez had bombed. And that looks like it might be turning around.
Giolito may be turning it around as well. Right now, he looks like he could finish the season with an ERA on the north side of 4. It's also likely that Lopez wouldn't be looking like he has turned it around if he had drawn the Twins in the rotation instead of the Marlins.

I would argue, though, that it's always about competing, even when it's not about winning. What I see is not a team that looks like it could be really good someday, but a team that isn't very good now at competing. A really great baseball team is greater than the sum of its parts (although the tendency is to define a team's greatness by the sum of its parts -- i.e. the inexplicable love for run differential, the persistent idea that 2005 White Sox really weren't very good etc. From that lack of competitiveness, I sort of get the feeling the White Sox are building a team that will be less than the sum of its parts.
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  #26  
Old 07-28-2019, 05:31 PM
blandman blandman is online now
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Giolito may be turning it around as well. Right now, he looks like he could finish the season with an ERA on the north side of 4. It's also likely that Lopez wouldn't be looking like he has turned it around if he had drawn the Twins in the rotation instead of the Marlins.

I would argue, though, that it's always about competing, even when it's not about winning. What I see is not a team that looks like it could be really good someday, but a team that isn't very good now at competing. A really great baseball team is greater than the sum of its parts (although the tendency is to define a team's greatness by the sum of its parts -- i.e. the inexplicable love for run differential, the persistent idea that 2005 White Sox really weren't very good etc. From that lack of competitiveness, I sort of get the feeling the White Sox are building a team that will be less than the sum of its parts.



They outplayed their production all year in terms of wins. I don't see a team bad at competing, I see a team with too many black holes all over the roster that no amount of effort is going to compensate for.
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  #27  
Old 07-28-2019, 06:04 PM
TDog TDog is online now
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They outplayed their production all year in terms of wins. I don't see a team bad at competing, I see a team with too many black holes all over the roster that no amount of effort is going to compensate for.
They competed in 25 percent of the games against the Twins during this homestand. They competed in 33 percent of the games against the Marlins during this homestand.

Asdide from the thrown-away Sunday game in Oakland, I don't believe the Sox competed on this roadtrip after the break. I'm pretty sure their blow-out losses are more than double their one-run wins. Blowout losses have to be more than 40 percent of their total loss total. That will certainly skew your run differential. The White Sox had a walk-off win in a game where they had a runner pass another runner on the bases after hitting what should have been a home run, That night they were competitive because they were playing a team worse than they were.

Overall, this has not been a frustrating, uncompetitive team.
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