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  #46  
Old 07-29-2019, 11:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Brewski View Post
This excuse doesn't make it sound better for Hahn. This makes it far worse.
I maybe misremembering. Gregorz above my post directly contradicts my memory.
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  #47  
Old 07-30-2019, 08:29 AM
kobo kobo is offline
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Originally Posted by Grzegorz View Post
Too bad the reporting is so pathetic. Some questioning on the conditioning and preparation the pitchers go through would be in order.
What purpose does that serve? What insight would you hope to get by having those questions asked? Are you under the impression that the pitching staff does not prepare and/or condition themselves properly?
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  #48  
Old 07-30-2019, 11:36 AM
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I see the Debbie Downers have hijacked this optimism thread......
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  #49  
Old 07-30-2019, 02:47 PM
Flight #24 Flight #24 is offline
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Originally Posted by Grzegorz View Post
Not knowing what they had? No evaluation? Really?

"Although he was only with us for roughly a year or so, the work that our player-development people did with him was very good as well. And there were people in the organization who spoke highly of his potential."

"'No one went into that deal ignorant of what this kid could possibly turn into,' Hahn said."

https://www.mlb.com/whitesox/news/ri...nando-tatis-jr
I'm bothered less by the Tatis trade than most. Of course you wish it hadn't happened, but at the time of the trade, the kid was 17, had not played a game in the minors, was not one of BA's top 30 international prospects or considered among the Sox top 30. Projecting him as a superstar was incredibly long odds. He hit those odds, kudos to him and the Padres for developing him. But that doesn't negate the fact that the odds of it happening were incredibly long.

Now if you think you should never ever trade a young kid with tools for an aging vet, fine - I'd disagree, but it's at least a reasonable argument. If you think the Sox had a procedural issue where they traded a guy without evaluating him, then to the extent that happened, I would agree. If the point is that he should have been evaluated higher, well seems like that's something that wasn't Sox-specific - BA didn't think he was top30 international when signed, and 2 years later and 9-12 months after the deal, he wasn't on top 50 lists at start of 2017
Not on BR top 80: https://bleacherreport.com/articles/...-season#slide0.
Noton MLB top 50: https://www.mlb.com/news/2017-top-10...led-c214450588
#78 per FanGraphs: https://blogs.fangraphs.com/2017-top-100-prospects/
#129 per Prospects1500: https://www.prospects1500.com/genera...all-prospects/

By 2018, he leapt to #8 in BA's list. AGain, kudos to him but if the point is "they evaluated him as a longshot/lottery ticket, as did others, and because it panned out, lambaste them," then that seems unfair.
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  #50  
Old 07-30-2019, 02:54 PM
Mohoney Mohoney is offline
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Originally Posted by Flight #24 View Post
I'm bothered less by the Tatis trade than most. Of course you wish it hadn't happened, but at the time of the trade, the kid was 17, had not played a game in the minors, was not one of BA's top 30 international prospects or considered among the Sox top 30. Projecting him as a superstar was incredibly long odds. He hit those odds, kudos to him and the Padres for developing him. But that doesn't negate the fact that the odds of it happening were incredibly long.

Now if you think you should never ever trade a young kid with tools for an aging vet, fine - I'd disagree, but it's at least a reasonable argument. If you think the Sox had a procedural issue where they traded a guy without evaluating him, then to the extent that happened, I would agree. If the point is that he should have been evaluated higher, well seems like that's something that wasn't Sox-specific - BA didn't think he was top30 international when signed, and 2 years later and 9-12 months after the deal, he wasn't on top 50 lists at start of 2017
Not on BR top 80: https://bleacherreport.com/articles/...-season#slide0.
Noton MLB top 50: https://www.mlb.com/news/2017-top-10...led-c214450588
#78 per FanGraphs: https://blogs.fangraphs.com/2017-top-100-prospects/
#129 per Prospects1500: https://www.prospects1500.com/genera...all-prospects/

By 2018, he leapt to #8 in BA's list. AGain, kudos to him but if the point is "they evaluated him as a longshot/lottery ticket, as did others, and because it panned out, lambaste them," then that seems unfair.
All true.

I can’t blame Hahn for something that is Reinsdorf’s fault. If we just pay Shields full price, Erik Johnson would have been enough on his own.
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  #51  
Old 07-30-2019, 03:54 PM
Flight #24 Flight #24 is offline
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All true.

I can’t blame Hahn for something that is Reinsdorf’s fault. If we just pay Shields full price, Erik Johnson would have been enough on his own.
Well, think of it this way. Had the Sox traded international bonus money and Johnson to the Pads for Shields and cash, not sure anyone would have blinked. It's basically that.
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  #52  
Old 07-30-2019, 04:09 PM
hoosiersoxfan hoosiersoxfan is offline
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Originally Posted by Flight #24 View Post
Well, think of it this way. Had the Sox traded international bonus money and Johnson to the Pads for Shields and cash, not sure anyone would have blinked. It's basically that.
Would that have been some of the international bonus money that ended up going to Luis Robert? I don’t remember the exact timeline of it all.
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  #53  
Old 07-30-2019, 04:14 PM
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Originally Posted by hoosiersoxfan View Post
Would that have been some of the international bonus money that ended up going to Luis Robert? I don’t remember the exact timeline of it all.
No, I'm equating trading unknown international prospect Tatis to save money on Shields to trading international bonus money (which would otherwise have been used to sign unknown international prospects) for Shields.

Basically that this whole thing looks terrible in hindsight, but at the time doesn't seem too bad of a risk. It just didn't pan out is all.
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  #54  
Old 07-30-2019, 04:30 PM
ChiSoxNationPres ChiSoxNationPres is online now
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Originally Posted by Mohoney View Post
All true.

I can’t blame Hahn for something that is Reinsdorf’s fault. If we just pay Shields full price, Erik Johnson would have been enough on his own.
This has nothing to do with Reinsdorf. The difference between the Padres getting a 17 yo lottery ticket in addition to Johnson wasn't the $11 mil a year they paid. No lotto ticket is worth close to that $25 mil plus or whatever they paid. The deal certainly could have been done with any other young upside non top 30 prospect. The Sox paying for all of Shield's contract wouldn't have even costed Johnson.
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  #55  
Old 07-30-2019, 05:39 PM
Mohoney Mohoney is offline
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Originally Posted by ChiSoxNationPres View Post
This has nothing to do with Reinsdorf. The difference between the Padres getting a 17 yo lottery ticket in addition to Johnson wasn't the $11 mil a year they paid. No lotto ticket is worth close to that $25 mil plus or whatever they paid. The deal certainly could have been done with any other young upside non top 30 prospect. The Sox paying for all of Shield's contract wouldn't have even costed Johnson.
Which would have been fine by me.

Spend money to make trades work more in your favor.
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  #56  
Old 07-30-2019, 05:46 PM
ChiSoxNationPres ChiSoxNationPres is online now
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Which would have been fine by me.

Spend money to make trades work more in your favor.
Yes, in retrospect of course it would have been better to do that. But, in reality the Sox were in a way different financial place in July 2016. That trade pushed them to their highest payroll of all time. Not Jerry's fault on that, actually the opposite.
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  #57  
Old 07-30-2019, 05:46 PM
Frater Perdurabo Frater Perdurabo is offline
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Which would have been fine by me.

Spend money to make trades work more in your favor.
Exactly. Agreed 100%. We have the lowest payroll in the division, even though we’re in the largest market in the division, with the most favorable stadium lease deal in all of MLB. JR should be using those dollars to get back better returns in trades.
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  #58  
Old 07-30-2019, 06:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Frater Perdurabo View Post
Exactly. Agreed 100%. We have the lowest payroll in the division, even though we’re in the largest market in the division, with the most favorable stadium lease deal in all of MLB. JR should be using those dollars to get back better returns in trades.
Back in 2016 the payroll was much higher and the Sox were thinking about trying to compete. They weren't trading for Shields to be an inning eater as they rebuilt the team from scratch (what he turned into) but were trying to compete and thought he'd help. With that mindset in mind it would have made sense to hold on to more dollars to sign or acquire more pieces. It didn't work out and that sucks, but I'm sure they figured the money was more important. It didn't work out and the Padres hit the jackpot.
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  #59  
Old 07-30-2019, 06:52 PM
Mohoney Mohoney is offline
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Originally Posted by ChiSoxNationPres View Post
Yes, in retrospect of course it would have been better to do that. But, in reality the Sox were in a way different financial place in July 2016. That trade pushed them to their highest payroll of all time. Not Jerry's fault on that, actually the opposite.
Austin Jackson was the marquee free agent signing that winter. They recouped LaRoche’s entire salary. The money was there. It just wasn’t spent.
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  #60  
Old 07-30-2019, 07:29 PM
Frater Perdurabo Frater Perdurabo is offline
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Austin Jackson was the marquee free agent signing that winter. They recouped LaRoche’s entire salary. The money was there. It just wasn’t spent.
Yes. If they are going to “go for it,” spend the damn money to do so.

If they want to accumulate prospects/young talent, spend the damn money!

I’m tired of JR valuing ownership group profit over on-field results.
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