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  #61  
Old 05-03-2019, 08:46 AM
Dan H Dan H is offline
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The final judgement on Hahn will be the end result of this rebuild. I am sure the team will at least become competitive. But will winning become too expensive?
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  #62  
Old 05-03-2019, 09:02 AM
TomBradley72 TomBradley72 is offline
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I'm pretty neutral on Hahn as a GM- I see some very promising signs with the rebuild pieces, all of the injuries have really hurt the progress (Burdi, Kopech, Dunning, and now Rodon + Burger)- I definitely question the ability to scout/evaluate major league talent- almost none of those moves have worked out in his tenure- but it's still a little fuzzy to me on his level of empowerment vs. KW in that area.

Tatis Jr. will always be a huge black eye- it would be one thing if he wallowed in the minors for a few years and then figured it out- but this kid was almost immediately skyrocketing up the rankings after the trade- just a huge miss- and the White Sox had ALL the leverage in that deal.

I think the real test for Hahn is coming up this fall- does he fall in the trap of the White Sox "lifetime loyalty, no accountability"- and bump along with Rentaria and his staff that the front office has a huge hand in selecting- or (pending results of this season)- does he take assertive action on bringing in a strong manager (I'm hoping for Vizquel), and allow that manager to select his own staff- and hopefully jettison Boston, Capra, etc. and really drive a culture change?
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  #63  
Old 05-03-2019, 01:31 PM
whitesoxfan1986 whitesoxfan1986 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blandman View Post
We disagree on the talent evaluations of our minor league pitchers. I don't see any of them as viable in the near future. I think three guys you named are gonna do more than wear it if they're regular rotation guys.
You don't think Cease is viable? Kopech either? Strange.
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  #64  
Old 05-03-2019, 02:54 PM
blandman blandman is offline
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Originally Posted by whitesoxfan1986 View Post
You don't think Cease is viable? Kopech either? Strange.
Cease isn't ready. August maybe? But they're also building up arm strength, so a callup this year isn't a given.

Kopech is definitely not a short term plug. He won't pitch at all this year.

By near future, I mean now. We were having a discussion about guys to call up now.
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  #65  
Old 05-04-2019, 08:12 AM
Tragg Tragg is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan H View Post
The final judgement on Hahn will be the end result of this rebuild. I am sure the team will at least become competitive. But will winning become too expensive?
When will that be measured? When will the rebuild be final?

My macro disappointment is that it doesn't appear to me that Hahn has changed the infrastructure at all. Now it doesn't surprise me, as Hahn learned the game from KW. But still ridiculously light on analytics, lifers or friends in key positions, they aren't all in on the international scene. And excuses galore.

On a micro perspective, does Hahn know how to build a baseball team? He already failed once, and nearly lit the place on fire in his last month of his first attempt. That's an undeniable fact.
Closing in on 3 years from the decision to rebuild, they really have gotten very little off the scrap-heap or in secondary trades. I can't identify one for-sure keeper. Part of it is lack of effort ...they haven't worked the waiver wire or rule 5 like other rebuilders; they've done very little in July (this edition of the Rays was built in July). This past offseason was spent finding washed up veterans instead of rebuilding this team. It wasn't a serious effort - it was clownshow.
But that's not a surprise because that's how he tried to build a team from 2014-16. In the meantime, Baltimore, rebuilding for less than a year, has gotten more off the scrapheap than the Sox have in 6 seasons.
The injuries are harmful in 2 ways. Obviously they hurt the rebuild. Second they provide the FO with an ongoing excuse, which will, no doubt be exaggerated and used to cover deficiencies (injuries or not, Burger and Burdi were bad picks, e.g.).

Last edited by Tragg; 05-04-2019 at 08:24 AM.
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  #66  
Old 05-04-2019, 08:23 AM
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voodoochile voodoochile is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tragg View Post
When will that be measured? When will the rebuild be final?

My macro disappointment is that it doesn't appear to me that Hahn has changed the infrastructure at all. Now it doesn't surprise me, as Hahn learned the game from KW. But still ridiculously light on analytics, lifers or friends in key positions, they aren't all in on the international scene. And excuses galore.

On a micro perspective, does Hahn know how to build a baseball team? He already failed once, and nearly lit the place on fire in his last month of his first attempt. That's an undeniable fact.
Closing in on 3 years from the decision to rebuild, they really have gotten very little off the scrap-heap or in secondary trades. I can't identify one for-sure keeper. Part of it is lack of effort ...they haven't worked the waiver wire or rule 5 like other rebuilders; this entire offseason was spent finding washed up veterans - aka a clownshow - instead rebuilding this team. But that's not a surprise because that's how he tried to build a team from 2014-16. In the meantime, Baltimore, rebuilding for less than a year, has gotten more off the scrapheap than the Sox have in 6 seasons.
The injuries are harmful in 2 ways. Obviously they hurt the rebuild. Second they provide the FO with an ongoing excuse, which will, no doubt be exaggerated and used to cover deficiencies (injuries or not, Burger and Burdi were bad picks, e.g.).
You wonít like the answer but we will know more in the next few years.
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  #67  
Old 05-04-2019, 09:19 AM
Dan H Dan H is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tragg View Post
When will that be measured? When will the rebuild be final?

My macro disappointment is that it doesn't appear to me that Hahn has changed the infrastructure at all. Now it doesn't surprise me, as Hahn learned the game from KW. But still ridiculously light on analytics, lifers or friends in key positions, they aren't all in on the international scene. And excuses galore.

On a micro perspective, does Hahn know how to build a baseball team? He already failed once, and nearly lit the place on fire in his last month of his first attempt. That's an undeniable fact.
Closing in on 3 years from the decision to rebuild, they really have gotten very little off the scrap-heap or in secondary trades. I can't identify one for-sure keeper. Part of it is lack of effort ...they haven't worked the waiver wire or rule 5 like other rebuilders; they've done very little in July (this edition of the Rays was built in July). This past offseason was spent finding washed up veterans instead of rebuilding this team. It wasn't a serious effort - it was clownshow.
But that's not a surprise because that's how he tried to build a team from 2014-16. In the meantime, Baltimore, rebuilding for less than a year, has gotten more off the scrapheap than the Sox have in 6 seasons.
The injuries are harmful in 2 ways. Obviously they hurt the rebuild. Second they provide the FO with an ongoing excuse, which will, no doubt be exaggerated and used to cover deficiencies (injuries or not, Burger and Burdi were bad picks, e.g.).
When will the rebuild be final? Good question. Everyone will have their own answer to that one. And I agree on one thing: The team can't keep using the rebuild as an excuse for losing.

Also, even if the team becomes somewhat respectable by inching over .500, that doesn't qualify the rebuild as successful. The team will have demonstrate sustainable results. When will that happen? No one knows; fans can only hope. But with one losing season after another, it sometimes hard to hope.
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  #68  
Old 05-04-2019, 10:07 AM
Frater Perdurabo Frater Perdurabo is offline
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No one will like this answer - even I donít like it - but I think that weíll finish below .500 this year, within 5 games of .500 in 2020, and then start being consistently above .500 and competing for the division in 2021.

Itís not so much blind faith or rose colored glasses that guides my thinking, but rather knowledge that:

1. Each time the JR ownership/management group has undertaken a full-scale honest rebuilding effort (2014-2015 doesnít count because, as Tragg correctly points out, that rebuild was short-circuited), they have built a winner. The late 80s rebuild laid the foundation for the 1990-1996 sustained run of success, and the late 90s rebuild laid the foundation for the 2000-2008 run of success.

2. Despite the injuries delaying the timeline we fans have created/expected, I still think the Sox have assembled a very good stable of prospects that should both fill out a big chunk of a roster, and should provide enough surplus at some positions to trade to fill whatever holes remain.

3. I think the group of Marco Paddy, Chris Getz, and Nick Hostetler, is the best triumvirate of talent evaluation/development staff we have had since Larry Himes. I think the major league scouting operation leaves a lot to be desired, however.

4. If Rick Renteria bombs out as manager, the Sox have a window of opportunity to hire Omar Vizquel (before someone else hires him), and I think he would make an excellent manager, and in particular could be well positioned to continue to help Moncada, Anderson, and Madrigal grow both defensively and at the plate.

(If I were ďdictator of the SoxĒ and had a fat checkbook, I would hire Vizquel as my manager, make Darrin Jackson my outfield/baserunning/1B coach, move Farmer to radio color analyst, hire AJ Pierzynski to join Stone and Benetti in the TV booth, hire a professional radio PBP announcer, hire the best analytics department money could buy, and implement an organization-wide state-of-the-art food, nutrition, sleep, and mindfulness program.)
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  #69  
Old 05-04-2019, 11:17 PM
Tragg Tragg is offline
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Guess which team is #30 in player development, at least according to this research. It's so bad that the Sox are nearly twice as bad as the team ranked #28!

And here's part 2 of the research. Last in developing pitching and catching!

Not using analytics seriously and hiring buddies is working so well.....

Last edited by Tragg; 05-04-2019 at 11:33 PM.
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  #70  
Old 05-05-2019, 01:36 AM
guillensdisciple guillensdisciple is offline
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I think the focus needs to be on what we have done to this franchise over the last decade. Rick Hahn is not a good GM, but he is not the case of our issues.

Years of complacency, a stubbornness to change how we operate, and a want for loyalty instead of performance has ruined this franchise beyond recognition.

In my mind, I believe we are the worst run and worst franchise in baseball period. For a long time, we had no goal and no vision. Even in the midst of this rebuild, I feel much the same.

When we tell minor leaguers that they will stay in the minors and we will not rush them, are we saying this because we have a plan for their development but because we think simply playing games means development? This worries me.

I also genuinely believe there is too much to do for this aspect of the rebuild to work. Now that we are finally beginning to embrace analytics, it will take time to fully integrate it into how we conduct business.

I have a horrible suspicion that we will not be winning or contending with this crop of prospects.
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  #71  
Old 05-05-2019, 11:56 AM
Lip Man 1 Lip Man 1 is offline
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John Jay (another outstanding Hahn acquisition ) has been placed on the 60 IL which means he is not eligible to come off it until shortly before Memoral Day.

How these guys still have jobs continues to amaze me.
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  #72  
Old 05-05-2019, 12:51 PM
whitesoxfan1986 whitesoxfan1986 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by guillensdisciple View Post
I think the focus needs to be on what we have done to this franchise over the last decade. Rick Hahn is not a good GM, but he is not the case of our issues.

Years of complacency, a stubbornness to change how we operate, and a want for loyalty instead of performance has ruined this franchise beyond recognition.

In my mind, I believe we are the worst run and worst franchise in baseball period. For a long time, we had no goal and no vision. Even in the midst of this rebuild, I feel much the same.

When we tell minor leaguers that they will stay in the minors and we will not rush them, are we saying this because we have a plan for their development but because we think simply playing games means development? This worries me.

I also genuinely believe there is too much to do for this aspect of the rebuild to work. Now that we are finally beginning to embrace analytics, it will take time to fully integrate it into how we conduct business.

I have a horrible suspicion that we will not be winning or contending with this crop of prospects.
Agreed. Nice post.
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  #73  
Old 05-05-2019, 02:54 PM
LITTLE NELL LITTLE NELL is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tragg View Post
Guess which team is #30 in player development, at least according to this research. It's so bad that the Sox are nearly twice as bad as the team ranked #28!

And here's part 2 of the research. Last in developing pitching and catching!

Not using analytics seriously and hiring buddies is working so well.....
Well JR has never believed in spending money on player development and the minor league system so this does not surprise me at all. The man has to sell the team and hopefully a new owner would get rid of Hahn, Williams, the coaching staff, scouts at all levels and the managers and coaches in the minors. This franchise needs a complete overhaul from top to bottom, what we have now just isn't working.
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  #74  
Old 05-05-2019, 05:08 PM
WhiteSox5187 WhiteSox5187 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by guillensdisciple View Post
I think the focus needs to be on what we have done to this franchise over the last decade. Rick Hahn is not a good GM, but he is not the case of our issues.

Years of complacency, a stubbornness to change how we operate, and a want for loyalty instead of performance has ruined this franchise beyond recognition.

In my mind, I believe we are the worst run and worst franchise in baseball period. For a long time, we had no goal and no vision. Even in the midst of this rebuild, I feel much the same.

When we tell minor leaguers that they will stay in the minors and we will not rush them, are we saying this because we have a plan for their development but because we think simply playing games means development? This worries me.

I also genuinely believe there is too much to do for this aspect of the rebuild to work. Now that we are finally beginning to embrace analytics, it will take time to fully integrate it into how we conduct business.

I have a horrible suspicion that we will not be winning or contending with this crop of prospects.
Agreed. The problem isnít Hahn (or isnít just Hahn), the problem is the owner. Until that changes I donít think much else will.
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  #75  
Old 05-05-2019, 05:08 PM
Tragg Tragg is offline
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There may be 2 arms in the org. that project to be a 1 or a 2. Minaya's the best they can come up with for the pen after drafting all of those relievers and trading for the rule 5 guys over the last few years.
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