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  #106  
Old 05-12-2019, 07:35 PM
Hitmen77 Hitmen77 is offline
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Originally Posted by Tragg View Post
On a good day, he's a 5th starter. Such a bargain for $9 million and a prospect.
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Originally Posted by voodoochile View Post
Yes it is at today's rates.
Well "on a good day", he's given us 6.0 - 7.0 IP with one run given up FOUR times already this year. I'd call those "good day" numbers better than 5th starter.

....and yeah, $9M for those kind of results is a terrible bargain? Not in 2019.

It still remains to be seen what he'll do for us from here on out, but come on now. Let's not be totally blinded by our hate here. If we're going to mock him on a outing-by-outing basis, then you you have to acknowledge the good outings too and not just pretend that the bad outings render a verdict on the trade.
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  #107  
Old 05-12-2019, 08:02 PM
Tragg Tragg is offline
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Originally Posted by Hitmen77 View Post
Well "on a good day", he's given us 6.0 - 7.0 IP with one run given up FOUR times already this year. I'd call those "good day" numbers better than 5th starter.

....and yeah, $9M for those kind of results is a terrible bargain? Not in 2019.

It still remains to be seen what he'll do for us from here on out, but come on now. Let's not be totally blinded by our hate here. If we're going to mock him on a outing-by-outing basis, then you you have to acknowledge the good outings too and not just pretend that the bad outings render a verdict on the trade.
I'm not a hater, just like I'm sure you're not a bootlicker.
I look at facts.
His ERA is 6.29 and his WHIP is 1.62. His K numbers and hits/walks suggest 5th starter even in his good games. He's pitching like Shields did last year - actually not as good but the numbers will probably be about the same by the end of the year.
McCann was a good acquisition.
Alonso, Jay, and Nova were not.
Colome is good but at a heavy price.
Herrera has been okay.
None are controlled beyond next year, although Narvaez would be were he still here.
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  #108  
Old 05-12-2019, 09:09 PM
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voodoochile voodoochile is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tragg View Post
I'm not a hater, just like I'm sure you're not a bootlicker.
I look at facts.
His ERA is 6.29 and his WHIP is 1.62. His K numbers and hits/walks suggest 5th starter even in his good games. He's pitching like Shields did last year - actually not as good but the numbers will probably be about the same by the end of the year.
McCann was a good acquisition.
Alonso, Jay, and Nova were not.
Colome is good but at a heavy price.
Herrera has been okay.
None are controlled beyond next year, although Narvaez would be were he still here.
Colome is still arbitration eligible and I think Nova has an option for next year. McCann too.
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  #109  
Old 05-12-2019, 09:41 PM
Hitmen77 Hitmen77 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tragg View Post
I'm not a hater, just like I'm sure you're not a bootlicker.
I look at facts.
His ERA is 6.29 and his WHIP is 1.62. His K numbers and hits/walks suggest 5th starter even in his good games. He's pitching like Shields did last year - actually not as good but the numbers will probably be about the same by the end of the year.
McCann was a good acquisition.
Alonso, Jay, and Nova were not.
Colome is good but at a heavy price.
Herrera has been okay.
None are controlled beyond next year, although Narvaez would be were he still here.
You said "on a good day, he's a 5th starter." He may indeed be 5th starter quality overall, but those numbers you're quoting aren't his "on a good day" numbers.

Saying his overall numbers suggests he's a 5th starter "even in his good games" simply is contradictory.
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  #110  
Old 05-13-2019, 02:46 PM
Tragg Tragg is offline
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We can nitpick as to whether Nova's good games are 5th starter or maybe bit better, but his overall results are not 5th starter and there were far better opportunities for less money, including the player the Pirates targeted and then signed once they dumped Nova on Rick Hahn (Jordan Lyles, who had similar numbers for 1/4 the cost).
And here are more overall results.
Sox Offseason:
Jay: 1/$4 0W
Herrera: 2/$18 .3W
McCann: 1/$2.5 1.4W
Alonso: 1/$8 -.3W
Colome: 1/$7.25 .2W
Santana: 1/$4.3 -.5W
Nova: 1/$9.17M .4W
Total Spent: $53.22 (plus 2 minor prospects and .908 OPS current 1.4W catcher) Total Gain: 1.5W
All of that for a net gain of .1 WAR. If this is deemed a successful offseason, how can the Sox compete?



Twins Offseason:
Gonzales: 2/$21 .2W
Cruz: 1/$14.3 .6W
Schoop: 1/$7.5 .9W
Perez: 1/$4 1W
Parker: 1/$1.8 .1W
Total Spent: $48.6 2.8W

Last edited by Tragg; 05-13-2019 at 03:03 PM.
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  #111  
Old 05-13-2019, 03:57 PM
Tragg Tragg is offline
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Regarding over the hill vets, Hahn has probably acquired, as a conservative estimate, twice as many in 7 years as KW did in 13. It's not even close.
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  #112  
Old 05-13-2019, 10:58 PM
DrCrawdad DrCrawdad is offline
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2017 Sox send Robertson, Frazier & Kahnle to the Yankees for Tyler Clippard, Clarkin, Tito Polo & Blake Rutherford. Robertson, Frazier and Kahnle are still contributing on the ML level. All the Sox have left to hope for is Rutherford, who’s hitting .163 BA, .469 OPS.
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  #113  
Old 05-14-2019, 12:20 AM
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Originally Posted by DrCrawdad View Post
2017 Sox send Robertson, Frazier & Kahnle to the Yankees for Tyler Clippard, Clarkin, Tito Polo & Blake Rutherford. Robertson, Frazier and Kahnle are still contributing on the ML level. All the Sox have left to hope for is Rutherford, who’s hitting .163 BA, .469 OPS.
That's what a rebuild is. You flip proven talent for young prospects. Not sure why this is such a big deal to you.
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  #114  
Old 05-14-2019, 12:49 AM
Mohoney Mohoney is offline
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Originally Posted by DrCrawdad View Post
2017 Sox send Robertson, Frazier & Kahnle to the Yankees for Tyler Clippard, Clarkin, Tito Polo & Blake Rutherford. Robertson, Frazier and Kahnle are still contributing on the ML level. All the Sox have left to hope for is Rutherford, who’s hitting .163 BA, .469 OPS.
Todd Frazier is contributing? His OPS also begins with the number 4.
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  #115  
Old 05-14-2019, 12:13 PM
Tragg Tragg is offline
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Okay, I'll say it. The team is looking a little better on the field. If the team is above .500 the day after the draft, go ahead and throw $15 million (or whatever it takes) at Kuechel and Kimbrall for a 4 month contract each. It would have been easier without the friends of Manny clownshow, but they can still afford it. After all, they claim to be all in for "premium talent."
Much better than overpaying in prospects for, say, Indians pitchers (and overpay they will if they acquire a pitcher via trade). No worrying about the year 8 liability.
I have doubts about decline from both of them. But there is no risk with 4 month contracts.
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  #116  
Old 05-14-2019, 12:17 PM
blandman blandman is offline
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Originally Posted by Tragg View Post
Okay, I'll say it. The team is looking a little better on the field. If the team is above .500 the day after the draft, go ahead and throw $15 million (or whatever it takes) at Kuechel and Kimbrall for a 4 month contract each. It would have been easier without the friends of Manny clownshow, but they can still afford it. After all, they claim to be all in for "premium talent."
Much better than overpaying in prospects for, say, Indians pitchers (and overpay they will if they acquire a pitcher via trade). No worrying about the year 8 liability.
I have doubts about decline from both of them. But there is no risk with 4 month contracts.
I don't think either would take a one year commitment from a rebuilding club. They could get that from any number of contenders. We'd essentially need to offer them what they're expecting on the high end in free agency next offseason. Three of four years each, minimum.

I'd say pass to that, but if not them then who? Might as well. Money isn't going to better free agents than that.
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  #117  
Old 05-14-2019, 12:22 PM
Tragg Tragg is offline
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Originally Posted by blandman View Post
I don't think either would take a one year commitment from a rebuilding club. They could get that from any number of contenders.
Could they?
Brewers don't have a lot of $; Dodgers don't need them. Arizona, Colorado and the Padres don't have fat wallets. Twins won't do it.
Cubs, Yankees and RedSox claim budget constraints.
Nationals aren't good this year. Not the Rays cup of tea.
That leaves Cardinals, Phillies Astros. Maybe the Braves.
Just outbid them and see what happens.
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  #118  
Old 05-14-2019, 01:02 PM
blandman blandman is offline
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Originally Posted by Tragg View Post
Could they?
Brewers don't have a lot of $; Dodgers don't need them. Arizona, Colorado and the Padres don't have fat wallets. Twins won't do it.
Cubs, Yankees and RedSox claim budget constraints.
Nationals aren't good this year. Not the Rays cup of tea.
That leaves Cardinals, Phillies Astros. Maybe the Braves.
Just outbid them and see what happens.
Define lots of money. A $20 million deal for this year only costs about $10 million after the draft. Are you suggesting a $30 million deal for this year? Because it has to be not close to come to a rebuilding club on a one year deal.

It's not just about this year. It's about maximizing their limited time in the league this year to leverage a big contract next offseason. Hard to do that on a bad ballclub.
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  #119  
Old 05-14-2019, 02:13 PM
GoSox2K3 GoSox2K3 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DrCrawdad
2017 Sox send Robertson, Frazier & Kahnle to the Yankees for Tyler Clippard, Clarkin, Tito Polo & Blake Rutherford. Robertson, Frazier and Kahnle are still contributing on the ML level. All the Sox have left to hope for is Rutherford, who’s hitting .163 BA, .469 OPS.
....and Rutherford hit .293 last season. I'm not defending it as a great trade per se, but pointing to his current BA one month into a promotion to AA isn't exactly an accurate look at his success.

It's far from certain that he'll become a successful MLB player, but let's not make it out like he's Courtney Hawkins 2.0 already. He was drafted out of high school in 2016. So, he's not old for a prospect at his level at this point.

Whether he can hit for average probably won't be a problem for him eventually. The big issue is that he, as a corner OF, needs to add power to be a viable everyday MLB player. He hasn't done that yet, but it's not out of the question that he'll add power as he matures (he just turned 22) and moves up the system. I'm not saying he'll surely do this. So, I'm not penciling him in for anything, but I'm not writing him off either.
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  #120  
Old 05-15-2019, 09:54 AM
TomBradley72 TomBradley72 is offline
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Originally Posted by GoSox2K3 View Post
....and Rutherford hit .293 last season. I'm not defending it as a great trade per se, but pointing to his current BA one month into a promotion to AA isn't exactly an accurate look at his success.

It's far from certain that he'll become a successful MLB player, but let's not make it out like he's Courtney Hawkins 2.0 already. He was drafted out of high school in 2016. So, he's not old for a prospect at his level at this point.

Whether he can hit for average probably won't be a problem for him eventually. The big issue is that he, as a corner OF, needs to add power to be a viable everyday MLB player. He hasn't done that yet, but it's not out of the question that he'll add power as he matures (he just turned 22) and moves up the system. I'm not saying he'll surely do this. So, I'm not penciling him in for anything, but I'm not writing him off either.
Rutherford is 22 yo and in his first 45 days at AA ball- he deserves some time to adjust to the more advanced level.

The pieces we traded had very limited value- 1 season and 2 months of Robertson, 2 months of Frazier and then Kahnle- if Rutherford has a solid season at AA- I think the trade still looks pretty good.
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