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  #361  
Old 11-17-2019, 04:21 PM
blandman blandman is online now
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Originally Posted by ChiSoxNationPres View Post
I'm not trying to argue he is an elite pitcher still, I think he will be a safe investment in being a number 3 that will be a huge asset in the regular season and postseason for this team. Sure the Sox could use a 1 or 2, but Cole/Strasburg aren't happening, and Wheeler isn't that good or worth the risk in paying him that much due to injury history. The Sox also don't quite know what they have in Kopech, Cease, Lopez, Rodon, Stiever for the next few years, and there is a pretty decent chance at least 1 turns into a 1-2 pitcher type.

You don't want to be overly down on him? Think he can start games the next few years and not hurt you? You literally said a few posts earlier that he would be the single worst transaction of the offseason. That's quite a walk back.

His price makes him a bad transaction. You will have to pay for a 1/2 guy, and he's a 4 borderline 5 depending on the speed of future regression.


The White Sox need pitchers. They need BOTH depth and high end pitching in order to succeed. If Cole, Strasburg, or Wheeler are not happening, it had better be because they didn't want to come here despite the best offer. Because if the implication is we won't pay for top end pitching when we so desperately need it, then we may as well trade off every asset on this team and start again because that's essentially a declaration that the rebuild has failed.
  #362  
Old 11-17-2019, 06:35 PM
Mohoney Mohoney is online now
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Originally Posted by blandman View Post
His price makes him a bad transaction. You will have to pay for a 1/2 guy, and he's a 4 borderline 5 depending on the speed of future regression.


The White Sox need pitchers. They need BOTH depth and high end pitching in order to succeed. If Cole, Strasburg, or Wheeler are not happening, it had better be because they didn't want to come here despite the best offer. Because if the implication is we won't pay for top end pitching when we so desperately need it, then we may as well trade off every asset on this team and start again because that's essentially a declaration that the rebuild has failed.
That certainly is the feeling Iím getting from the various Stone/Merkin/Garfein/Duber comments on social media.
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  #363  
Old 11-17-2019, 07:29 PM
ChiSoxNationPres ChiSoxNationPres is online now
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Originally Posted by blandman View Post
His price makes him a bad transaction. You will have to pay for a 1/2 guy, and he's a 4 borderline 5 depending on the speed of future regression.


The White Sox need pitchers. They need BOTH depth and high end pitching in order to succeed. If Cole, Strasburg, or Wheeler are not happening, it had better be because they didn't want to come here despite the best offer. Because if the implication is we won't pay for top end pitching when we so desperately need it, then we may as well trade off every asset on this team and start again because that's essentially a declaration that the rebuild has failed.
Except #1-2 type pitchers make $25-35mil a year, not the $18-20mil Bumgarner is projected to make. That is not an overpay for a #3.

Again, the Sox likely already have another ace yet to emerge from Kopech, Cease, Rodon, Lopez, and Stiever.
  #364  
Old 11-17-2019, 07:49 PM
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Speaking of Rodon, I hope the Kris Bryant grievance is resolved before the non-tender deadline. If Bryant does end up getting a year added to his service time, then there is no good reason whatsoever to tender Rodon.
  #365  
Old 11-17-2019, 07:57 PM
ChiSoxNationPres ChiSoxNationPres is online now
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Originally Posted by Mohoney View Post
Speaking of Rodon, I hope the Kris Bryant grievance is resolved before the non-tender deadline. If Bryant does end up getting a year added to his service time, then there is no good reason whatsoever to tender Rodon.

What does Rodon's future have to do with Bryant's? There was no service time manipulation with Rodon. He will be around for at least another 2 seasons.
  #366  
Old 11-17-2019, 11:30 PM
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Except #1-2 type pitchers make $25-35mil a year, not the $18-20mil Bumgarner is projected to make. That is not an overpay for a #3.

Again, the Sox likely already have another ace yet to emerge from Kopech, Cease, Rodon, Lopez, and Stiever.

I don't view Bumgarner as a #3, especially not going forward. But also, I expect him to get around $25 million per over 4.


If the last few World Series have shown us anything, it's that the teams that make it have more than 2 guys that would be considered 1/2 types. It's possible that Cease and Kopech become 1/2 guys to go along with Giolito. But it's not a given, and it's not probable this year. The other guys - almost certainly not. And with only 3 guys, it's a much tougher route unless they're completely lights out aces - like the Nationals had. And lets be realistic...with as good as Giolito was last year...he's not Scherzer or Strasburg. We need to slot in front of him.
  #367  
Old 11-18-2019, 12:49 AM
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I don't view Bumgarner as a #3, especially not going forward. But also, I expect him to get around $25 million per over 4.


If the last few World Series have shown us anything, it's that the teams that make it have more than 2 guys that would be considered 1/2 types. It's possible that Cease and Kopech become 1/2 guys to go along with Giolito. But it's not a given, and it's not probable this year. The other guys - almost certainly not. And with only 3 guys, it's a much tougher route unless they're completely lights out aces - like the Nationals had. And lets be realistic...with as good as Giolito was last year...he's not Scherzer or Strasburg. We need to slot in front of him.
You need more than two pitchers to pitch like they are top of the rotation guys, not necessarily considered #1-2s to win it all.

WAS 2019- Scherzer and Strasburg. Sanchez pitched like an ace in the playoffs and Corbin wasn't good in the playoffs.

BOS 2018- Sale was the only TOR guy. Got a lot out of guys that are 3-5 starters like Porcello, Price, Eovaldi.

HOU 2017- Verlander. Morton was certainly not considered a top guy entering that season. Keuchel was good that year but hardly the TOR guy you are referring to.

Not seeing all these clear cut stacked rotations you say have to have 3+ #1-2 type guys. Only WAS would qualify.

The Sox don't have to have their future WS winning team all together after this offseason. They have another 4 or so offseasons at least with trade deadlines to get their TOR guy to put them over the top if it looks like they will need one.
  #368  
Old 11-18-2019, 12:54 AM
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What does Rodon's future have to do with Bryant's? There was no service time manipulation with Rodon. He will be around for at least another 2 seasons.
Sure there was. Rodon is at 4.168 of service, 4 days under the 172 needed for a full year.
  #369  
Old 11-18-2019, 01:11 AM
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Originally Posted by Mohoney View Post
Sure there was. Rodon is at 4.168 of service, 4 days under the 172 needed for a full year.
His first appearance was on 4/21/2015 so I agree. It is what it is. He'll be almost 29 when he hits FA for the first time due to his injury issues. He's going to need to prove a lot these next two years or he's not going to break the bank.

Edit: I do have one question. What happens if he misses this entire year? Do the Sox get another year of Arbitration tacked on?
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  #370  
Old 11-18-2019, 06:32 AM
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Edit: I do have one question. What happens if he misses this entire year? Do the Sox get another year of Arbitration tacked on?
If Iím not mistaken, itís the same issue with Kopech. Once youíre on the major league roster, time spent on the injured list (either 10/15-day, or 50-day) counts toward your service time, and the clock keeps ticking toward free agent eligibility.
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  #371  
Old 11-18-2019, 09:30 AM
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Originally Posted by Frater Perdurabo View Post
If Iím not mistaken, itís the same issue with Kopech. Once youíre on the major league roster, time spent on the injured list (either 10/15-day, or 50-day) counts toward your service time, and the clock keeps ticking toward free agent eligibility.
I must be having a brainfart Monday. I could have sworn someone said the Sox got an extra year due to his injury. I thought that was true of any player who misses a full year due to major surgery.
  #372  
Old 11-18-2019, 09:48 AM
ChiSoxNationPres ChiSoxNationPres is online now
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Sure there was. Rodon is at 4.168 of service, 4 days under the 172 needed for a full year.
Rodon pitched only 24.2 innings total in the minors before the 2015 season. He could have been down for another 1.5-2 years and it would have been normal. They did him a favor bringing him up that year, regardless of the exact date.
  #373  
Old 11-18-2019, 11:50 AM
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Originally Posted by ChiSoxNationPres View Post
Rodon pitched only 24.2 innings total in the minors before the 2015 season. He could have been down for another 1.5-2 years and it would have been normal. They did him a favor bringing him up that year, regardless of the exact date.
Well, look at the flip side. Bryant only played 1 year and change in the minors, which by your definition would also be ďnormal.Ē
  #374  
Old 11-18-2019, 12:10 PM
ChiSoxNationPres ChiSoxNationPres is online now
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Well, look at the flip side. Bryant only played 1 year and change in the minors, which by your definition would also be ďnormal.Ē
No, I said that if you added an additional 1.5-2 years to Rodon's 2014 time in the minors it would be normal.

Either way. the more time spent in the minors means someone is more ready for the bigs. Bryant spent more time in the minors than other advanced college bats like Bregman and Benintendi, while putting up way better numbers than either of them.

Rodon had big time control problems in the minors and was just called up regardless. Should have definitely spent several more months down in AAA working on getting a more consistent release point.
  #375  
Old 11-18-2019, 01:56 PM
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The Twins just had a private meeting with Zack Wheeler.

If the ****ing Twins can afford Zack Wheeler and we can't, we might as well contract the ****ing franchise.
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