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  #46  
Old 10-29-2019, 05:04 AM
Grzegorz Grzegorz is offline
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Yeah, stubborn refusal to admit defeat and move on is a time-honored White Sox tradition.
Great point. Hope is what fans must rely on regarding EJ outfield improvement. Just be patient while EJ practices and gets outfield instruction. Too bad that patience, practice and coaching didn't happen in the past.

Of the two options you presented I'd bet the White Sox pick option number two.
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  #47  
Old 10-29-2019, 10:03 AM
Mohoney Mohoney is online now
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Or they'd just rather spend the money elsewhere for a few years, see if Eloy develops closer to average fielding chops with patience, practice and coaching or that one of the younger kids comes up and takes the job. Not like they haven't got good things elsewhere to spend the money on.
Which all amounts to refusing to admit that Eloy is not cut from outfielder’s cloth.

Want to save money? Engel makes the league minimum. The acquired stopgap outfielder could play LF instead of RF, which expands the list of possible acquisitions and could result in spending less to fill the hole.

Again, it all amounts to exactly how serious this team is about “competing” in 2020. One more rebuilding year could answer a lot of these questions for us.
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  #48  
Old 10-29-2019, 10:16 AM
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voodoochile voodoochile is offline
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Which all amounts to refusing to admit that Eloy is not cut from outfielder’s cloth.

Want to save money? Engel makes the league minimum. The acquired stopgap outfielder could play LF instead of RF, which expands the list of possible acquisitions and could result in spending less to fill the hole.

Again, it all amounts to exactly how serious this team is about “competing” in 2020. One more rebuilding year could answer a lot of these questions for us.
I'm going to trust the Sox management to do what they think is right for the players, the team and based on the money they have to spend. If they choose to keep Eloy in left for a season or two to find out the things I mentioned and allow other younger players to develop and spend the money elsewhere I'm fine with that,

Next year will be a tweener year. Add some pieces that will help both in 2020 and for several years to come and if everything breaks right they are in the mix and either way should be a WC/division contender the whole season. Then add more pieces and hopefully Vaughn in 2021 with Dunning and Rodon back and crack the window wide open.
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  #49  
Old 10-29-2019, 10:26 AM
ChiSoxNationPres ChiSoxNationPres is online now
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The Red Sox.
Probably Mookie makes more sense for a ready to contend team like the Red Sox, even though their starting staff and bullpen has lot's of question marks. Losing him at the end of the season and just getting a draft pick hurts, but maybe they free up enough money this year to resign him next offseason.
  #50  
Old 10-29-2019, 10:40 AM
Mohoney Mohoney is online now
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Originally Posted by voodoochile View Post
I'm going to trust the Sox management to do what they think is right for the players, the team and based on the money they have to spend. If they choose to keep Eloy in left for a season or two to find out the things I mentioned and allow other younger players to develop and spend the money elsewhere I'm fine with that,

Next year will be a tweener year. Add some pieces that will help both in 2020 and for several years to come and if everything breaks right they are in the mix and either way should be a WC/division contender the whole season. Then add more pieces and hopefully Vaughn in 2021 with Dunning and Rodon back and crack the window wide open.
Which is fine.

I just don’t have that same level of trust.
  #51  
Old 10-29-2019, 11:13 AM
blandman blandman is online now
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The thing that makes me laugh the most about this is that it took years of regression and eroding skills for JD Martinez to be as bad an outfielder as Eloy is right now.

I agree that the Sox seem locked in trying Eloy in the outfield for a while. Which is probably a bad move for short term success. Long term it doesn't matter. There's almost no chance he becomes league average but by the time we're ready to win he'll be DH-ing.
  #52  
Old 10-29-2019, 11:20 AM
asindc asindc is offline
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Which is fine.

I just don’t have that same level of trust.
So essentially you would like to see the Sox make moves based in part on the level of mistrust you have that they will make the right moves. I'm not trying to belittle your point here, but I can't help but draw that conclusion from your posts on this subject.
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  #53  
Old 10-29-2019, 11:33 AM
Mohoney Mohoney is online now
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So essentially you would like to see the Sox make moves based in part on the level of mistrust you have that they will make the right moves. I'm not trying to belittle your point here, but I can't help but draw that conclusion from your posts on this subject.
Yes, that is part of it. It’s like baby-proofing a house before letting Renteria play romper room again.
  #54  
Old 10-29-2019, 12:56 PM
blurry blurry is offline
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There's almost no chance he becomes league average
What's this based on?
  #55  
Old 10-29-2019, 01:36 PM
blandman blandman is online now
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What's this based on?
This has been debated ad nauseam, but the literal thousands of innings of work trying to get better at playing outfield while remaining terrible.

There's always a chance for anything, but with Eloy I just don't see a reason to believe it's likely.
  #56  
Old 10-29-2019, 02:49 PM
Mohoney Mohoney is online now
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Or, if you want to kill 2 birds with 1 stone, get 2 longer-term outfielders this offseason.

How desperate are the Red Sox to get under the tax line? How much of a splash do the Padres want to make in free agency?

Offer to take every penny of the contracts of David Price and Nate Eovaldi off Boston’s hands, but insist on getting Andrew Benintendi, Jay Groome, and another prospect in the top half of their Top 30 back. Give Boston Alex Colomé, Yolmer Sanchez, and half their salaries. That saves Boston ~$41/$49/$49 over the next 3 years, addresses their need for late-inning relief, and gives them a great defensive backup infielder.

At the same time, tell the Padres that you will send Price, Eovaldi, and enough cash to make the trade cash-neutral for Wil Myers, Taylor Trammell, and one of their pitching prospects somewhere in the top half of their Top 30. The Padres get 2 rotation pieces, and a lot more value, out of money that they would have spent anyway.

Find another team to take Myers for half price or one-third price in a salary dump.

For 3/$107-$117, the White Sox get Benintendi, Trammell, Groome, and 2 other prospects. I think 3 years of Benintendi and 3 years of Trammell would provide comparable value to 2 mid-level DH/corner OF free agents at 3/$53-$58 apiece. At that point, it would be a matter of Groome and the two other prospects providing more value than Benintendi’s arbitration salaries.

3 years of team control on Benintendi
7 years of team control on Trammell, Groome, and 2 more players

That averages out to about $3.5 million per season of team control, with only Benintendi’s 2020 season being wasted on a “tweener” year.

Benintendi/Engel/Robert with Eloy at DH would be one of the best defensive outfields in baseball for the 2020 “tweener” year, and another outfielder should be ready to slide Robert to CF and Engel either to the bench or out of town by early 2021 or mid 2021.

We need to face reality. In 2020, we plan on breaking in 2 rookies as everyday players and giving 90 starts to question marks Reynaldo Lopez, Dylan Cease, and Michael Kopech. I totally agree that 2020 payroll should be allocated to making the future better, but I think the return on those dollars is weaker if we have to forfeit a sizable portion of them on the 2020 services of free agents. Without a doubt, we need to leave this offseason with the best possible free agent starter, and that will require some serious wasted 2020 dollars. The other needs may require some creativity—and another year of development time—to address them.
  #57  
Old 10-29-2019, 03:09 PM
blandman blandman is online now
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Originally Posted by Mohoney View Post
Or, if you want to kill 2 birds with 1 stone, get 2 longer-term outfielders this offseason.

How desperate are the Red Sox to get under the tax line? How much of a splash do the Padres want to make in free agency?

Offer to take every penny of the contracts of David Price and Nate Eovaldi off Boston’s hands, but insist on getting Andrew Benintendi, Jay Groome, and another prospect in the top half of their Top 30 back. Give Boston Alex Colomé, Yolmer Sanchez, and half their salaries. That saves Boston ~$41/$49/$49 over the next 3 years, addresses their need for late-inning relief, and gives them a great defensive backup infielder.

At the same time, tell the Padres that you will send Price, Eovaldi, and enough cash to make the trade cash-neutral for Wil Myers, Taylor Trammell, and one of their pitching prospects somewhere in the top half of their Top 30. The Padres get 2 rotation pieces, and a lot more value, out of money that they would have spent anyway.

Find another team to take Myers for half price or one-third price in a salary dump.

For 3/$107-$117, the White Sox get Benintendi, Trammell, Groome, and 2 other prospects. I think 3 years of Benintendi and 3 years of Trammell would provide comparable value to 2 mid-level DH/corner OF free agents at 3/$53-$58 apiece. At that point, it would be a matter of Groome and the two other prospects providing more value than Benintendi’s arbitration salaries.

3 years of team control on Benintendi
7 years of team control on Trammell, Groome, and 2 more players

That averages out to about $3.5 million per season of team control, with only Benintendi’s 2020 season being wasted on a “tweener” year.

Benintendi/Engel/Robert with Eloy at DH would be one of the best defensive outfields in baseball for the 2020 “tweener” year, and another outfielder should be ready to slide Robert to CF and Engel either to the bench or out of town by early 2021 or mid 2021.

We need to face reality. In 2020, we plan on breaking in 2 rookies as everyday players and giving 90 starts to question marks Reynaldo Lopez, Dylan Cease, and Michael Kopech. I totally agree that 2020 payroll should be allocated to making the future better, but I think the return on those dollars is weaker if we have to forfeit a sizable portion of them on the 2020 services of free agents. Without a doubt, we need to leave this offseason with the best possible free agent starter, and that will require some serious wasted 2020 dollars. The other needs may require some creativity—and another year of development time—to address them.
I don't think there's any amount of salary relief that gets the Red Sox to accept that deal.
  #58  
Old 10-29-2019, 03:30 PM
hoosiersoxfan hoosiersoxfan is online now
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Originally Posted by Mohoney View Post
Offer to take every penny of the contracts of David Price and Nate Eovaldi off Boston’s hands, but insist on getting Andrew Benintendi, Jay Groome, and another prospect in the top half of their Top 30 back. Give Boston Alex Colomé, Yolmer Sanchez, and half their salaries. That saves Boston ~$41/$49/$49 over the next 3 years, addresses their need for late-inning relief, and gives them a great defensive backup infielder.
If this was one of the first moves Chaim Bloom made in Boston he deserves to be fired. No way in hell he would entertain a move like that.
  #59  
Old 10-29-2019, 03:34 PM
Mohoney Mohoney is online now
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I don't think there's any amount of salary relief that gets the Red Sox to accept that deal.
If JD Martinez opts out, they’re probably fine. If Martinez opts in, they may need to choose between Benintendi and Betts anyway. This gives the new front office a better chance to retain Betts, plus get some help around him.

Benintendi only has 3 years of team control remaining, and he is not exactly coming off a great season. He was exactly 0 batting runs above average last year. OPS+ and wRC+ back that up, both putting him at exactly 100.

I think he will be better than that going forward, but it’s not like it’s a risk-free proposition on our end. We’re not really abusing their payroll desperation or anything. I think it’s a fair deal. If they can do better, then they are more than welcome to do so.

By all accounts, Price, Sale, and Eovaldi are immovable. That’s where we come in and make them movable for the right price. For obvious reasons, Sale is a non-starter, but the others could be fair game.
  #60  
Old 10-29-2019, 03:43 PM
Mohoney Mohoney is online now
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If this was one of the first moves Chaim Bloom made in Boston he deserves to be fired. No way in hell he would entertain a move like that.
Let’s put it this way.

If I were a Red Sox fan, I would want every effort made to keep a special talent like Mookie Betts in a Red Sox uniform for life. Resetting the repeater tax and freeing up future funds to pay Betts is worth sacrificing an overpaid good-but-declining former ace, a guy who was criminally overpaid based on postseason heroics, a good-but-not-elite player entering arbitration who would skyrocket in price and be out the door soon anyway even if he were to take the next step, a high-upside pitching prospect coming off TJS last May, and another depth piece.
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