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  #76  
Old 09-14-2019, 12:26 PM
slavko slavko is offline
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Originally Posted by ChiSoxNationPres View Post
That was not a signing. You can't name 1 FA signing he bargain hunted for, and that was your main premise? Got it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mohoney View Post
James Shields.
For the record, JR was against the Shields signing because of his obvious decline but Hahn prevailed on him, or so the insiders say. Maybe he should take over the GM role himself, like Charlie Finley. And that begs the question of why Hahn is still employed here.
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  #77  
Old 09-14-2019, 12:45 PM
Mohoney Mohoney is offline
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Originally Posted by ChiSoxNationPres View Post
It's not cheapness, it's being risk adverse.
Eventually, taking on those risks are just the price you need to pay to field a winner. Whether it’s risking money or risking farm talent is the real question. So far, this ownership has shown a preference for the latter.

We certainly can put together an extremely bad-ass team with extremely small long-term commitment, but we would have to nuke the farm system.

The first thing I would do is sign MadBum and consider that a “smaller risk” than Cole. After that, dig up as much couch change as possible by salary dumping/non-tendering Yolmer and Leury. Then do a Merrifield trade with the Royals (Madrigal, Sheets, and maybe a pitcher they like from our recent draft classes).

After that, see what kind of corner Dombrowski’s replacement is really backed into with regards to payroll. If they need to get under the tax limit and reset the penalties for a new reboot of sorts, tell them they can have:

1) Their choice of Kopech or Cease
2) Their choice of Lopez or Dunning
3) Stiever
4) Their choice of Walker or Rutherford
5) Their choice of Basabe or Adolfo
6) Tyler Johnson

For David Price...and Mookie Betts.

Outfield: Eloy/Robert/Betts
Infield: Moncada/TA/Merrifield/Abreu
McCann catching, Collins at DH
Rotation: MadBum/Price/Giolito/Kopech or Cease/Lopez or some other arm (maybe the Royals want to unload Danny Duffy with Merrifield to slash payroll?)
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  #78  
Old 09-14-2019, 02:01 PM
A. Cavatica A. Cavatica is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mohoney View Post
Eventually, taking on those risks are just the price you need to pay to field a winner. Whether it’s risking money or risking farm talent is the real question. So far, this ownership has shown a preference for the latter.

We certainly can put together an extremely bad-ass team with extremely small long-term commitment, but we would have to nuke the farm system.

The first thing I would do is sign MadBum and consider that a “smaller risk” than Cole. After that, dig up as much couch change as possible by salary dumping/non-tendering Yolmer and Leury. Then do a Merrifield trade with the Royals (Madrigal, Sheets, and maybe a pitcher they like from our recent draft classes).

After that, see what kind of corner Dombrowski’s replacement is really backed into with regards to payroll. If they need to get under the tax limit and reset the penalties for a new reboot of sorts, tell them they can have:

1) Their choice of Kopech or Cease
2) Their choice of Lopez or Dunning
3) Stiever
4) Their choice of Walker or Rutherford
5) Their choice of Basabe or Adolfo
6) Tyler Johnson

For David Price...and Mookie Betts.

Outfield: Eloy/Robert/Betts
Infield: Moncada/TA/Merrifield/Abreu
McCann catching, Collins at DH
Rotation: MadBum/Price/Giolito/Kopech or Cease/Lopez or some other arm (maybe the Royals want to unload Danny Duffy with Merrifield to slash payroll?)
I don't see the point of trading Madrigal++ for a second baseman. I know you don't like Madrigal's low-ISO profile, but he could end up being better than Merrifield.

I'm also not ready to nuke the farm system and go for broke, but props for putting out a coherent proposal.
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  #79  
Old 09-14-2019, 02:25 PM
Camilo, carry-on Camilo, carry-on is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mohoney View Post
Eventually, taking on those risks are just the price you need to pay to field a winner. Whether it’s risking money or risking farm talent is the real question. So far, this ownership has shown a preference for the latter.

We certainly can put together an extremely bad-ass team with extremely small long-term commitment, but we would have to nuke the farm system.

The first thing I would do is sign MadBum and consider that a “smaller risk” than Cole. After that, dig up as much couch change as possible by salary dumping/non-tendering Yolmer and Leury. Then do a Merrifield trade with the Royals (Madrigal, Sheets, and maybe a pitcher they like from our recent draft classes).

After that, see what kind of corner Dombrowski’s replacement is really backed into with regards to payroll. If they need to get under the tax limit and reset the penalties for a new reboot of sorts, tell them they can have:

1) Their choice of Kopech or Cease
2) Their choice of Lopez or Dunning
3) Stiever
4) Their choice of Walker or Rutherford
5) Their choice of Basabe or Adolfo
6) Tyler Johnson

For David Price...and Mookie Betts.

Outfield: Eloy/Robert/Betts
Infield: Moncada/TA/Merrifield/Abreu
McCann catching, Collins at DH
Rotation: MadBum/Price/Giolito/Kopech or Cease/Lopez or some other arm (maybe the Royals want to unload Danny Duffy with Merrifield to slash payroll?)
I think Red Sox management wouldn't take all of those players for Mookie Betts alone. I know I wouldn't.

And, as a White Sox fan, I don't want David Price. He's 34 and on the downside of his career.
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  #80  
Old 09-14-2019, 02:35 PM
Mohoney Mohoney is offline
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People say they’re sick of waiting and need results next year. I’m trying to think about what that actually would look like. RF, 2B, and SP were glaring weaknesses in 2019. To make the massive improvement in run differential that this team desperately needs to make, importing the 4 guys I named gets it done in a single offseason, without any of those 5-year-and-beyond commitments that make Reinsdorf shriek like one of the yokels from The Village. You have to wreck your farm system to do it, and that will shorten your competitive window by 2 or 3 years on the back end, but you’re giving yourself 2 seasons where you’re Yankees/Astros/Dodgers-level good.

Want to wait until 2021 for the big plunge and have guys like Madrigal, Rutherford, Vaughn, Dunning, and other high-end farmhands be a part of it? Fine by me. Just don’t get Zack Wheeler and a handful of magic beans for the rotation, re-sign Abreu under the marketing premise that he is an elite middle-order hitter, and expect me to consider that an honest attempt at competing for a championship in 2020.
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  #81  
Old 09-14-2019, 02:45 PM
Mohoney Mohoney is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Camilo, carry-on View Post
I think Red Sox management wouldn't take all of those players for Mookie Betts alone. I know I wouldn't.

And, as a White Sox fan, I don't want David Price. He's 34 and on the downside of his career.
They may be in a position where they have no choice but to move both players. Betts already makes $20 million as an Arb 2. He only has 2 years of control, and that control is not at a reduced salary. Price is at $96 million for 3 years. Rumors are swirling that the Red Sox consider themselves to be in an urgent financial situation that needs a correction.
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  #82  
Old 09-14-2019, 03:26 PM
longtimefan longtimefan is offline
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Originally Posted by slavko View Post
For the record, JR was against the Shields signing because of his obvious decline but Hahn prevailed on him, or so the insiders say. Maybe he should take over the GM role himself, like Charlie Finley. And that begs the question of why Hahn is still employed here.
I know Hahn made the Shields trade but I don't believe for a second he pushed for it. I have no proof but Hahn's modus operandi has always been to build up prospects. The guy who I believe made the trade happen is Hahn's boss; Kenny Williams. KW has made a career out of trading minor league players for aging major leaguers.
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  #83  
Old 09-14-2019, 03:28 PM
A. Cavatica A. Cavatica is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mohoney View Post
They may be in a position where they have no choice but to move both players. Betts already makes $20 million as an Arb 2. He only has 2 years of control, and that control is not at a reduced salary. Price is at $96 million for 3 years. Rumors are swirling that the Red Sox consider themselves to be in an urgent financial situation that needs a correction.
Taking Price off their hands for Rodon, Colome, a low grade prospect and salary relief would work for me.

If Price can pitch at all (and he’s generally been healthy) he is a rotation lock. We have the money and need a veteran leader for the rotation.

Boston’s bullpen was their weak link this year. Including Colome and salary relief limits their downside risk.

Rodon is the potential upside for them. He’s much younger than Price, and if he can ever stay healthy he could be an overpaid LHP starter for them for a long time — so let’s extract value while we can.

Last edited by A. Cavatica; 09-14-2019 at 03:48 PM.
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  #84  
Old 09-14-2019, 03:40 PM
longtimefan longtimefan is offline
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Trade for Price...Please no more trades for aging, declining pitchers.
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  #85  
Old 09-14-2019, 03:54 PM
A. Cavatica A. Cavatica is offline
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Originally Posted by longtimefan View Post
Trade for Price...Please no more trades for aging, declining pitchers.
The length remaining on his deal (2023 FA) limits our downside risk, and Reinsdorf might actually prefer it to (say) 7 years for Cole.

He has generally been healthy and knows how to pitch. A lefty like that can last forever.

The key for me would be getting him for spare parts like Rodon and Colome.
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  #86  
Old 09-14-2019, 04:04 PM
Mohoney Mohoney is offline
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Originally Posted by longtimefan View Post
Trade for Price...Please no more trades for aging, declining pitchers.
If taking on Price’s money gets me Mookie ****ing Betts, I don’t even think twice about it.

1) Merrifield
2) Robert
3) Moncada
4) Mookie
5) Abreu
6) Eloy
7) Collins
8) McCann
9) TA

Sick of not getting attention? MAKE people pay attention. That lineup MAKES people pay attention. The fact that this can coexist with our nitwit neighbors to the north crashing and burning would make even more eyeballs turn our way.
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  #87  
Old 09-14-2019, 04:14 PM
A. Cavatica A. Cavatica is offline
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Originally Posted by Mohoney View Post
If taking on Price’s money gets me Mookie ****ing Betts, I don’t even think twice about it.
In your proposal it was taking on Price’s money, giving up Kopech and a boatload of other talent to get Mookie ****ing Betts...

Taking on his money will not get you Betts, but it might get you Price without having to give up much more. Price as a #2 next year, a #3 the year after, and somewhere in the rotation until his contract expires would not be a bad thing. I think he’s a lock to outpitch Rodon over that period. Subtracting Rodon’s salary and Colome’s remaining year offsets a little of his salary.

And the rotation needs a lefty.

Getting Price now would be like the Cubs getting Lester, except Price is better, and we wouldn’t have to win a bidding war in free agency to get him.
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  #88  
Old 09-14-2019, 04:49 PM
ChiSoxNationPres ChiSoxNationPres is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mohoney View Post
Eventually, taking on those risks are just the price you need to pay to field a winner. Whether it’s risking money or risking farm talent is the real question. So far, this ownership has shown a preference for the latter.

We certainly can put together an extremely bad-ass team with extremely small long-term commitment, but we would have to nuke the farm system.

The first thing I would do is sign MadBum and consider that a “smaller risk” than Cole. After that, dig up as much couch change as possible by salary dumping/non-tendering Yolmer and Leury. Then do a Merrifield trade with the Royals (Madrigal, Sheets, and maybe a pitcher they like from our recent draft classes).

After that, see what kind of corner Dombrowski’s replacement is really backed into with regards to payroll. If they need to get under the tax limit and reset the penalties for a new reboot of sorts, tell them they can have:

1) Their choice of Kopech or Cease
2) Their choice of Lopez or Dunning
3) Stiever
4) Their choice of Walker or Rutherford
5) Their choice of Basabe or Adolfo
6) Tyler Johnson

For David Price...and Mookie Betts.

Outfield: Eloy/Robert/Betts
Infield: Moncada/TA/Merrifield/Abreu
McCann catching, Collins at DH
Rotation: MadBum/Price/Giolito/Kopech or Cease/Lopez or some other arm (maybe the Royals want to unload Danny Duffy with Merrifield to slash payroll?)
So the Sox should blow up the farm system for 1 year of Betts, an aging and very average Price, a 31 year old Merrifield, and also just give 500 ABs to Collins who has proven nothing? Hard pass.

Fortunately Hahn has no interest in any of this. He is trying to build a sustainable winning club, not 1 WC team. Not sure how serious you were in this approach either.
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  #89  
Old 09-14-2019, 04:52 PM
ChiSoxNationPres ChiSoxNationPres is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Camilo, carry-on View Post
I think Red Sox management wouldn't take all of those players for Mookie Betts alone. I know I wouldn't.

And, as a White Sox fan, I don't want David Price. He's 34 and on the downside of his career.
Mookie Betts for 1 season and making ~$25mil won't cost nearly what you think. Cease, Dunning, Stiever plus other top 25 prospects is a gross overpay.
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  #90  
Old 09-14-2019, 05:12 PM
Mohoney Mohoney is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by A. Cavatica View Post
In your proposal it was taking on Price’s money, giving up Kopech and a boatload of other talent to get Mookie ****ing Betts...

Taking on his money will not get you Betts, but it might get you Price without having to give up much more. Price as a #2 next year, a #3 the year after, and somewhere in the rotation until his contract expires would not be a bad thing. I think he’s a lock to outpitch Rodon over that period. Subtracting Rodon’s salary and Colome’s remaining year offsets a little of his salary.

And the rotation needs a lefty.

Getting Price now would be like the Cubs getting Lester, except Price is better, and we wouldn’t have to win a bidding war in free agency to get him.
All things being equal, taking on Price’s money may be the tiebreaker that gets our offer accepted and another offer rejected.
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