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  #91  
Old 09-14-2019, 05:21 PM
Mohoney Mohoney is offline
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Originally Posted by ChiSoxNationPres View Post
Mookie Betts for 1 season and making ~$25mil won't cost nearly what you think. Cease, Dunning, Stiever plus other top 25 prospects is a gross overpay.
Oh man. I thought Betts had 2 years of team control remaining. I thought he was walking after 2021.

Youíre right, the offer can come down. You can do Cease/Kopech, Stiever, one outfielder instead of two, and their choice of Tyler Johnson OR another outfielder.
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  #92  
Old 09-14-2019, 05:25 PM
A. Cavatica A. Cavatica is offline
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Originally Posted by Mohoney View Post
Oh man. I thought Betts had 2 years of team control remaining. I thought he was walking after 2021.

Youíre right, the offer can come down. You can do Cease/Kopech, Stiever, one outfielder instead of two, and their choice of Tyler Johnson OR another outfielder.
No way do I give that up for one year of Betts unless it's "win in 2020 or bust".
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  #93  
Old 09-14-2019, 05:28 PM
Mohoney Mohoney is offline
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No way do I give that up for one year of Betts unless it's "win in 2020 or bust".
Itís for Betts and Price.
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  #94  
Old 09-14-2019, 05:34 PM
ChiSoxNationPres ChiSoxNationPres is offline
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Originally Posted by Mohoney View Post
Itís for Betts and Price.
That does not change the fact that it's 2 years or nothing. Obviously hypothetical, considering he is a FA after next year. Price has a 4.28 ERA this year and will be 34 next year, might as well sign Cole Hamels and give up nothing if you want that production.
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  #95  
Old 09-14-2019, 05:38 PM
A. Cavatica A. Cavatica is offline
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Well, I'm not ready to give up so much value after 2020 in return for being truly competitive in 2020.

The fact remains: the rebuild has produced enough trade value to make this scenario possible.

There must be sites that estimate the total WAR or total trade value of entire organizations. I am curious where the Sox stood the day before the Sale trade and where they stand now.
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  #96  
Old 09-14-2019, 05:43 PM
Mohoney Mohoney is offline
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Originally Posted by ChiSoxNationPres View Post
That does not change the fact that it's 2 years or nothing. Obviously hypothetical, considering he is a FA after next year. Price has a 4.28 ERA this year and will be 34 next year, might as well sign Cole Hamels and give up nothing if you want that production.
Yeah, it would be 2 years with this maxed-out iteration of the team, and 2 or 3 more years of a team that figures to dominate a weak AL Central after Cleveland fades and Minnesota loses talent. Itís fewer overall chances, but itís maximizing the odds on 2 of those chances while we still have Moncada, Eloy, and Robert making peanuts.
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  #97  
Old 09-14-2019, 05:50 PM
Frater Perdurabo Frater Perdurabo is offline
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Originally Posted by Mohoney View Post
Yeah, it would be 2 years with this maxed-out iteration of the team, and 2 or 3 more years of a team that figures to dominate a weak AL Central after Cleveland fades and Minnesota loses talent. Itís fewer overall chances, but itís maximizing the odds on 2 of those chances while we still have Moncada, Eloy, and Robert making peanuts.
I think you can get a 2020 AL Central contending team by signing Cole and Grandal, and trading peanuts for Choo. And then you bring up Robert and Madrigal and re-sign Nova to plug a hole in the rotation until Kopech returns.

If it doesnít work for 2020, Choo, Abreu, and McCann all come off the books after 2020, your payroll is still in decent shape, and you still have all your prospects, and the window is still wide open.
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  #98  
Old 09-14-2019, 05:58 PM
Mohoney Mohoney is offline
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Originally Posted by A. Cavatica View Post
Well, I'm not ready to give up so much value after 2020 in return for being truly competitive in 2020.

The fact remains: the rebuild has produced enough trade value to make this scenario possible.

There must be sites that estimate the total WAR or total trade value of entire organizations. I am curious where the Sox stood the day before the Sale trade and where they stand now.
Itís not so much about impatience as it is about capitalizing on the most opportune time to strike. I donít see this team securing this many cost-effective high-end players ever again. I also donít see this team paying enough to keep guys like Moncada and Robert when they reach free agency.

Iím fine with making 2021 the focus year, but that makes the inaction at the 2019 trade deadline even more aggravating.
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  #99  
Old 09-14-2019, 06:13 PM
A. Cavatica A. Cavatica is offline
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Originally Posted by Mohoney View Post
It’s for Betts and Price.
If we're picking up Price's salary then he's not worth a big return. Rodon and Colome seems about right to me.

If we're trading for Betts we'd better be able to negotiate an extension first. I don't trade for him otherwise. But if we can extend him, then they can have two from Adolfo, Basabe, and Rutherford. They can even have Collins. And they can have one of Dunning or Stiever or Cease, but in the case of Cease we get a decent prospect back.

Last edited by A. Cavatica; 09-14-2019 at 06:35 PM.
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  #100  
Old 09-14-2019, 07:54 PM
ChiTownTrojan ChiTownTrojan is offline
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Originally Posted by Frater Perdurabo View Post
I think you can get a 2020 AL Central contending team by signing Cole and Grandal, and trading peanuts for Choo. And then you bring up Robert and Madrigal and re-sign Nova to plug a hole in the rotation until Kopech returns.

If it doesnít work for 2020, Choo, Abreu, and McCann all come off the books after 2020, your payroll is still in decent shape, and you still have all your prospects, and the window is still wide open.
This would be my dream offseason, and I think itís very realistic. I donít like the idea of gutting the farm system and shortening the contention window. There is so much payroll flexibility they shouldnít have to do that.
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  #101  
Old 09-14-2019, 10:46 PM
Mohoney Mohoney is offline
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Originally Posted by ChiTownTrojan View Post
This would be my dream offseason, and I think itís very realistic. I donít like the idea of gutting the farm system and shortening the contention window. There is so much payroll flexibility they shouldnít have to do that.
We see payroll flexibility, but do they see the same thing?
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  #102  
Old 09-15-2019, 10:19 AM
Tragg Tragg is offline
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Originally Posted by Frater Perdurabo View Post
I think you can get a 2020 AL Central contending team by signing Cole and Grandal, and trading peanuts for Choo. And then you bring up Robert and Madrigal and re-sign Nova to plug a hole in the rotation until Kopech returns.

If it doesn’t work for 2020, Choo, Abreu, and McCann all come off the books after 2020, your payroll is still in decent shape, and you still have all your prospects, and the window is still wide open.
I don't think that would be a contending team; but on the other hand, it's not much of a risk either and better and less young talent-risky than a lot of things they could (and probably will) do.
Nova is not very good and nowhere near worth $9 million. And certainly if you expect the team to contend you've got to do better than Nova. No more lazy/trades and signings.

Last edited by Tragg; 09-15-2019 at 10:28 AM.
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  #103  
Old 09-15-2019, 10:26 AM
Noneck Noneck is offline
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Originally Posted by Tragg View Post
I don't think that would be a contending team; but on the other hand, it's not much of a risk either and better than a lot of things they could do.
Re-signing Nova, imo, would be lazy. There are better $9 million pitchers.

I could see Nova turning next year into this years Ervin Santana, Id want nothing to do with him in the future.
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  #104  
Old 09-15-2019, 10:59 AM
Frater Perdurabo Frater Perdurabo is offline
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I don't think that would be a contending team; but on the other hand, it's not much of a risk either and better and less young talent-risky than a lot of things they could (and probably will) do.
Nova is not very good and nowhere near worth $9 million. And certainly if you expect the team to contend you've got to do better than Nova. No more lazy/trades and signings.
I donít think thereís a realistic path to being a team in the Yankees/Astros echelon in 2020, without significantly mortgaging our prospect depth. Mohoneyís proposal is certainly aggressive and interesting, but requires everything to go right and leaves little margin for error.

A year ago Machado looked like the perfect fit. But now the left side of the infield looks like the most stable part of our team particularly if Anderson can improve his throwing.

I donít see any catching depth beyond Collins, and even heís a definite question mark. That why I want Grandal, who also is a good enough hitter that he can DH and thus be in the lineup almost every day.

Choo would solve the RF hole and provide OBP in the leadoff spot. You can run a lineup of Choo, Anderson, Moncada, Abreu, Grandal, Eloy as the top 6, and then Collins/McCann, Robert and Madrigal can be eased into the 7-9 spots depending on matchups. I think that lineup would score a lot of runs.

Cole and Giolito atop our rotation provides significant protection so that once Kopech is ready, the weakest among Cease, Lopez, and Nova can move to the pen. And even so, due to scheduled off days the fifth starter spot wonít be needed until the April 10-27 stretch.

Maybe Iím drinking too much of my own Kool Aid, but I think that team easily goes .500+, and with a few breaks could win 90 which might be enough to take the division.
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  #105  
Old 09-15-2019, 01:01 PM
ChiSoxNationPres ChiSoxNationPres is offline
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Originally Posted by Mohoney View Post
Itís not so much about impatience as it is about capitalizing on the most opportune time to strike. I donít see this team securing this many cost-effective high-end players ever again. I also donít see this team paying enough to keep guys like Moncada and Robert when they reach free agency.

Iím fine with making 2021 the focus year, but that makes the inaction at the 2019 trade deadline even more aggravating.
This FO has been one of the most aggressive in extending top talent over the more recent years, they won't have to wait till FA and spend top dollar on Moncada/Robert/etc.

The non Machado signing has made this much more possible.
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