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  #16  
Old 10-17-2018, 08:30 AM
TommyJohn TommyJohn is offline
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I agree and thank you for taking the high road. Comments like he one you mentioned come across as nothing but trolling.
You're right. I shouldn't have taken the bait.
  #17  
Old 10-17-2018, 08:44 AM
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The 2018 White Sox (a team that lost 100 games) managed to draw 1.6 million people. What the north side team draws is not particularly relevant. The question isn't which team is more popular. The question is whether the Chicago area can continue to support two teams. Clearly it can. There are still plenty of Sox fans who will support their team -- especially when they start winning again. The Sox aren't going anywhere.
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  #18  
Old 10-17-2018, 12:02 PM
Lip Man 1 Lip Man 1 is offline
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As bad as things are now (and as bad as they can possibly get over the next few years) I have a difficult time seeing a scenario where they move. There just aren't markets out there the size of Chicago that even in bad times can produce the revenue and the opportunities for revenue that Chicago does.

Plus I continue to have a hard time thinking the American League (which already has a number of smaller markets) is going to abandon the #3 market in the country to the National League...just can't see it although I will also say anything is potentially possible. If such a situation did somehow take place I can see them relocating a franchise or giving an expansion team to the city like would have happened if the Sox moved to Seattle after 1975. (Charlie Finley was going to move the A's to fill the void)
  #19  
Old 10-17-2018, 12:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Lip Man 1 View Post
As bad as things are now (and as bad as they can possibly get over the next few years) I have a difficult time seeing a scenario where they move. There just aren't markets out there the size of Chicago that even in bad times can produce the revenue and the opportunities for revenue that Chicago does.

Plus I continue to have a hard time thinking the American League (which already has a number of smaller markets) is going to abandon the #3 market in the country to the National League...just can't see it although I will also say anything is potentially possible. If such a situation did somehow take place I can see them relocating a franchise or giving an expansion team to the city like would have happened if the Sox moved to Seattle after 1975. (Charlie Finley was going to move the A's to fill the void)
I mostly agree with what you're saying, but the idea that the American and National Leagues are two separate entities needs to be abandoned. The leagues haven't had separate presidents, umpires or strike zones for a long time now. That the pitchers don't hit in the AL is about the only difference anymore. Everyone operates under the MLB umbrella now, so everything needs to be thought of in terms of how MLB operates, not the AL or NL.
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  #20  
Old 10-17-2018, 12:32 PM
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Originally Posted by thomas35forever View Post
I mostly agree with what you're saying, but the idea that the American and National Leagues are two separate entities needs to be abandoned. The leagues haven't had separate presidents, umpires or strike zones for a long time now. That the pitchers don't hit in the AL is about the only difference anymore. Everyone operates under the MLB umbrella now, so everything needs to be thought of in terms of how MLB operates, not the AL or NL.

I agree with you.

There isnt a real president of the american league anymore, I guess Frank Robinson is the honorary president now with no power. Its all MLB now, not american and national league.
  #21  
Old 10-17-2018, 12:50 PM
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Originally Posted by Irishelvis99
With the current state of baseball in this city severely leveraged to one side, do we think the Sox have a legitimate chance on staying in town for a while. While the current lease for the Sox at the Rate ends in 2029, it doesnít bode well for them when it come to securing a new home in this state. Illinois isnít going to foot the bill, private investors arenít going to line up to put money to support a franchise thatís fan base is clearly on the decline. And with more and more clubs getting newer stadiums, Angels are the latest, it doesnít bode well for this clubs future in town unless they are lining up something right now.

It would not surprise me that by 2025, the Charlotte White Sox are playing on opening day.

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  #22  
Old 10-17-2018, 02:26 PM
Hitmen77 Hitmen77 is offline
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Originally Posted by Lip Man 1 View Post
As bad as things are now (and as bad as they can possibly get over the next few years) I have a difficult time seeing a scenario where they move. There just aren't markets out there the size of Chicago that even in bad times can produce the revenue and the opportunities for revenue that Chicago does.

Plus I continue to have a hard time thinking the American League (which already has a number of smaller markets) is going to abandon the #3 market in the country to the National League...just can't see it although I will also say anything is potentially possible. If such a situation did somehow take place I can see them relocating a franchise or giving an expansion team to the city like would have happened if the Sox moved to Seattle after 1975. (Charlie Finley was going to move the A's to fill the void)
Agreed about the Chicago market and the lack of many other "new" markets. Let's see the Sox make the playoffs at least 2 years in a row before we proclaim them as doomed in Chicago - even with the Cubs dominance.

To bring up an old talking point (made by others), looking at poor attendance for ~3 good months in 2012 after several disappointing seasons is hardly proof that the Sox can't draw when "winning". That's not "fielding a winner" - that's a several month hot streak followed by a typical collapse and then years of totally horse**** teams. Right now, things look terrible because the Sox are in the low point of a rebuild.

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Originally Posted by thomas35forever View Post
I mostly agree with what you're saying, but the idea that the American and National Leagues are two separate entities needs to be abandoned. The leagues haven't had separate presidents, umpires or strike zones for a long time now. That the pitchers don't hit in the AL is about the only difference anymore. Everyone operates under the MLB umbrella now, so everything needs to be thought of in terms of how MLB operates, not the AL or NL.
Yep. Reports suggest that MLB is seriously considering radical realignment. I really hope that never happens, but that would mean the end of the AL and NL altogether and the Cubs and Sox likely would be lumped into perhaps an 8-team Midwest Division.
  #23  
Old 10-17-2018, 02:32 PM
WhiteSox5187 WhiteSox5187 is offline
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SoxMachine's Podcast had a little bit about the future of the White Sox in Chicago and both hosts agreed that there aren't a lot of other markets that could offer the same sort of benefits as Chicago, but they did agree that the future of the White Sox on the south side (and at 35th and Shields specifically) is a bit more in doubt.

I am a bit more pessimistic about the White Sox future in Chicago but I think a lot hinges on how successful the rebuild is. If the White Sox are capable of making the post season in back to back seasons (or even just multiple times over a five year window), I think the Sox are safe. But if the team struggles and can't consistently make the playoffs while the Cubs continue their stretch of dominance, I don't think it is completely outside the realm of possibility that a new owner would come in and think "I can't compete in the same market with the Cubs." But I will acknowledge that that is an incredibly pessimistic view.

If the Sox stay in Chicago, I actually think they are in an ideal location at 35th and Shields. More millennials are choosing to live in the city and the park is easily accessible via public transportation and car from downtown and the near north side. Also, with gentrification (for want of a better word) spreading south from the south loop to Pilsen to Chinatown, Bridgeport could quite easily become a new "hot" neighborhood to live although there will likely never be quite as many post-game opportunities in Bridgeport as there are in Wrigleyville.

I have no idea how the financing of a new stadium would work, but a lot could change between now and when the team is looking to actually begin construction on a new park (for better or for worse).

Another baseless fear in my overly pessimistic view of things is that since the history of this organization (regardless of owner) seems to be so rooted in being penny-wise and pound foolish, I worry a bit that the Sox would try to build a new stadium in the Western suburbs and I think THAT would be a disaster.
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  #24  
Old 10-17-2018, 05:56 PM
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My opinion regarding baseball fandom....

People donít stop rooting for their team. They may go to fewer games or watch fewer hours on tv, but they donít quit the team. This is especially true in a two-team town. If anything, Sox fans are dormant right now.

Regarding the Cubs, it is pessimistic to think they are going to ride a wave of success for the next 15 years. Everything in baseball is cyclical.

To that point, I also think it is one dimensional to translate Cubs success to lack of White Sox fans. In fact, that success seems to reinforce Sox fandom and possibly even create new fans. I know a lot of people already sick of that show up there.

But, all that said, I find it highly suspect that this thread was created right after we roadhoused the other garbage last week. The Sox arenít going anywhere.
  #25  
Old 10-17-2018, 06:22 PM
Noneck Noneck is offline
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No ownership group would ever leave a lease the Sox have now. After that expires, who knows.
  #26  
Old 10-18-2018, 02:58 AM
Luis11 Luis11 is offline
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Playing at 35th and shields, the current ownership group has gotten a pretty good return on it's $20 million investment it made in 1981.
A new ownership group paying $1 Billion dollars won't play at the current ballpark regardless of the lease terms; it just doesn't make financial sense. A new ballpark in the city or suburbs is needed or they will move the team.
  #27  
Old 10-18-2018, 05:19 AM
Grzegorz Grzegorz is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WhiteSox5187 View Post
I don't think it is completely outside the realm of possibility that a new owner would come in and think "I can't compete in the same market with the Cubs." But I will acknowledge that that is an incredibly pessimistic view.

Any new owner that does not want to have their product compete for entertainment dollars can go jump in the lake.

Quote:
Originally Posted by WhiteSox5187 View Post
More millennials are choosing to live in the city and the park is easily accessible via public transportation and car from downtown and the near north side. Also, with gentrification (for want of a better word) spreading south from the south loop to Pilsen to Chinatown, Bridgeport could quite easily become a new "hot" neighborhood to live although there will likely never be quite as many post-game opportunities in Bridgeport as there are in Wrigleyville.

I have no idea how the financing of a new stadium would work, but a lot could change between now and when the team is looking to actually begin construction on a new park (for better or for worse).

Another baseless fear in my overly pessimistic view of things is that since the history of this organization (regardless of owner) seems to be so rooted in being penny-wise and pound foolish, I worry a bit that the Sox would try to build a new stadium in the Western suburbs and I think THAT would be a disaster.

Two points and a question:

Cook county in number two list of US counties with the highest outbound migration over the last five years. Millennials may continue to move into the city, but their tax burden will certainly rise. Do they still use their disposable income on baseball games? I don't know...

The financing of a new stadium will be tried using city budgets. Here in Chicago that's not even a fantasy (do the math). Maybe munis can be used but I thought that there was a bill floating out there that would prevent munis (fed) from subsidizing stadiums. Here's a novel idea: have the owner build it through their own financing.

Why would a move to the western suburbs be a disaster?
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  #28  
Old 10-18-2018, 11:55 AM
Lip Man 1 Lip Man 1 is offline
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Originally Posted by Grzegorz View Post
Any new owner that does not want to have their product compete for entertainment dollars can go jump in the lake.
Historically you can make the case this exact situation has been going on for decades, from as far back as when new ownership took over and Eddie Einhorn was publicly talking about the Sox being "Chicago's American League team..." and that the Sox were not in competition with the Cubs.

I have in my library the 10th Inning show from April 1981 where Harry Caray interviewed both JR and EE and he again brought that point up.

The only time the Sox really took on the Cubs was when Brooks Boyer unveiled his brilliant Us vs. Them advertising campaign.

That is part of the reason the Sox are in the position they are in today and ironically both men should have known better, they both lived in Chicago basically full time since the late 1950's.

They should have known Sox fans weren't going to support the Cubs when the Sox were on the road and Cub fans weren't going to be seeing the Sox play when the Cubs were out of town.
  #29  
Old 10-18-2018, 12:08 PM
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Originally Posted by Grzegorz View Post
Why would a move to the western suburbs be a disaster?
Have you taken the CTA to Naperville?
Have you driven on the Eisenhower from the City to get to the western suburbs by 6:00 or so when you get done at the office at 5:00?

It may be convenient to those of you in the western burbs, but to everyone else, it is 4 hours of commuting before and after the game combined. Metra only runs to and from downtown. At 10:00 when the game is over, the Metra is every other hour. In other words, Metra is useless. So much for any meaningful attendance, regardless of the won/loss record, especially on a "school night."

There's a reason why the Cubs and Sox, of the four major teams in Chicago, are the furthest from downtown. You need as many transportation options as possible to bring in 25,000+ on 81 dates.
  #30  
Old 10-18-2018, 08:33 PM
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Itís hard to believe the Sox could have less attention paid to them than now, but moving them out to the suburbs would pretty much guarantee that. No way any of the media is going to commute out to Addison to cover the team. On the flip side, Iíve lost track of how many times Iíve seen radio/tv guys heading back downtown on the Red or Green line either after the game or just before the start of one.
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