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  #61  
Old 09-12-2019, 06:17 PM
Mohoney Mohoney is offline
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Originally Posted by ChiSoxNationPres View Post
OK... so you think Jerry won't approve contracts now that are $150-200 mil less than what they were willing to pay last winter?
I think Jerry is always on the lookout for a heavy markdown, whether it’s on a $2 million player, a $20 million player, or a $200 million player. I don’t think it’s as much about the actual dollars and cents as it is about somehow gaming the system and underpaying.

We hear an awful lot about willingness to spend, but we don’t see any actual spending. If there is one person in this entire situation who deserves absolutely no faith whatsoever from fans, that person is Jerry Reinsdorf.
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  #62  
Old 09-12-2019, 06:32 PM
ChiSoxNationPres ChiSoxNationPres is offline
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Originally Posted by Mohoney View Post
I think Jerry is always on the lookout for a heavy markdown, whether it’s on a $2 million player, a $20 million player, or a $200 million player. I don’t think it’s as much about the actual dollars and cents as it is about somehow gaming the system and underpaying.

We hear an awful lot about willingness to spend, but we don’t see any actual spending. If there is one person in this entire situation who deserves absolutely no faith whatsoever from fans, that person is Jerry Reinsdorf.
What owner or GM isn't looking to get below market value if they present themselves?

What Sox signings have been marked down? Because most recently, Robertson, Herrera, and Melky have all at least been fair market value. Specifically the Robertson deal was the opposite of being cheap and bargain hunting, $46mil for a closer is a lot now and I think was the record at the time back in 2014.
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  #63  
Old 09-12-2019, 07:15 PM
Mohoney Mohoney is offline
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Originally Posted by ChiSoxNationPres View Post
What owner or GM isn't looking to get below market value if they present themselves?

What Sox signings have been marked down? Because most recently, Robertson, Herrera, and Melky have all at least been fair market value. Specifically the Robertson deal was the opposite of being cheap and bargain hunting, $46mil for a closer is a lot now and I think was the record at the time back in 2014.
James Shields.
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  #64  
Old 09-12-2019, 07:41 PM
Frater Perdurabo Frater Perdurabo is offline
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Originally Posted by Tragg View Post
Oakland and Tampa bay have misers who sign paychecks too.
It's Rick Hahn and crew that worry me.
Their owners are misers because their stadium situations are terrible.

The Sox have a sweetheart stadium deal and huge profits, but ownership chooses not to spend.
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  #65  
Old 09-12-2019, 07:56 PM
ChiSoxNationPres ChiSoxNationPres is offline
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James Shields.
That was not a signing. You can't name 1 FA signing he bargain hunted for, and that was your main premise? Got it.
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  #66  
Old 09-12-2019, 09:06 PM
Tragg Tragg is online now
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Originally Posted by Frater Perdurabo View Post
Their owners are misers because their stadium situations are terrible.

The Sox have a sweetheart stadium deal and huge profits, but ownership chooses not to spend.
Regardless of the reasons, that is the reality (I guess; apparently JR was willing to spend some sort of money for Moncada, just not near his market value). And the Sox performance given those apparent constraints is well behind others with probably even tighter constraints.

Back to the 40 man, unless the Sox have an inordinate number of real prospects that need to be protected (Rutherford comes to mind; and obviously Mercedes must be protected), I can't see any sort of "crunch." There are 9 guys on the 25 man who don't need protection: Leury (exposed in the 2nd half of the season), Palka, Santiago, Cordell, Goins, Covey, Castillo, Skole and Detweiller. And really, you'd have to let Osich and Cordero go before losing any sort of real prospect. And then there are a bunch not on the 25 man but on the 40 man like Madeiros.
And of course that explains a lot re why the team is so bad: Over 40% of the roster is essentially org. guys. That's too many.
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  #67  
Old 09-12-2019, 09:10 PM
Mohoney Mohoney is offline
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Originally Posted by ChiSoxNationPres View Post
That was not a signing. You can't name 1 FA signing he bargain hunted for, and that was your main premise? Got it.
He still gave up way too much to get the Padres to eat money on the contract. The Machado “pursuit” was pure clown college as well.

Sure, we signed David Robertson, but that’s because closer is just about the only position where we were able to pay top-end AAV.

Look no further than those Melky and LaRoche signings. Those guys were counted on to be major contributors while being paid like complementary pieces.

This. ownership. is. cheap.
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  #68  
Old 09-13-2019, 06:41 AM
Frater Perdurabo Frater Perdurabo is offline
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Originally Posted by Tragg View Post
Back to the 40 man, unless the Sox have an inordinate number of real prospects that need to be protected (Rutherford comes to mind; and obviously Mercedes must be protected), I can't see any sort of "crunch." There are 9 guys on the 25 man who don't need protection: Leury (exposed in the 2nd half of the season), Palka, Santiago, Cordell, Goins, Covey, Castillo, Skole and Detweiller. And really, you'd have to let Osich and Cordero go before losing any sort of real prospect. And then there are a bunch not on the 25 man but on the 40 man like Madeiros.
And of course that explains a lot re why the team is so bad: Over 40% of the roster is essentially org. guys. That's too many.
We basically agree; here’s who I said ought to be DFA’d/non-tendered this fall, in the first post of the thread (16 total names is exactly 40 percent of the 40-man roster):

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1. Subtract/DFA/outright/don’t re-sign/trade/non-tender: Castillo, Jay, Tilson, Palka, Skole, Goins, Yolmer, Cordell, Engel, Zavala, Detwiler, Santiago, Osich, Vieira, Banuelos, Ruiz
Some have disagreed on Yolmer. My counter is that he’s too expensive for his level of production, and Leury is more versatile because he plays the same IF positions plus the OF.

Also, perhaps a couple of the younger guys from that list might be acceptable to trade to Texas if we’re willing to pay full freight on Shin Soo Choo’s contract. Choo is older, yes, but he still plays acceptable RF defense, he still hits and gets on base at a solid clip, his production doesn’t drop when he’s the DH, and he knows how to hit American League pitchers. He’s signed for 2020 and buys the Sox a year in RF while we wait to see if one among Rutherford, Adolfo, Basabe, Gonzalez, and Walker distinguishes himself for a 2021 big league OF job. I know you’re not a fan of veterans, but in this case Choo would be a low-risk, high-reward type who fills a lot of needs.
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  #69  
Old 09-13-2019, 10:52 AM
ChiSoxNationPres ChiSoxNationPres is offline
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Originally Posted by Mohoney View Post
He still gave up way too much to get the Padres to eat money on the contract. The Machado “pursuit” was pure clown college as well.

Sure, we signed David Robertson, but that’s because closer is just about the only position where we were able to pay top-end AAV.

Look no further than those Melky and LaRoche signings. Those guys were counted on to be major contributors while being paid like complementary pieces.

This. ownership. is. cheap.
You are deviating from your original point quite a bit here, and can't name one FA that wasn't paid market value.

The David Robertson deal literally debunks your whole original statement/argument.

You can say Jerry isn't as aggressive with spending as he should, but comparing him to perpetual bottom 4 payroll teams like Oakland and Tampa is a ridiculous hyperbole.
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  #70  
Old 09-13-2019, 12:00 PM
Mohoney Mohoney is offline
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Originally Posted by ChiSoxNationPres View Post
You are deviating from your original point quite a bit here, and can't name one FA that wasn't paid market value.

The David Robertson deal literally debunks your whole original statement/argument.

You can say Jerry isn't as aggressive with spending as he should, but comparing him to perpetual bottom 4 payroll teams like Oakland and Tampa is a ridiculous hyperbole.
Jose Abreu's $68 million deal is the larges in team history. The only teams with smaller deals than that as their franchise record are...the Pirates, the Indians, and the A's.

This ownership group does not pay full market price for elite talent. Until they do, I will continue to operate under the assumption that they will not.
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  #71  
Old 09-13-2019, 12:02 PM
A. Cavatica A. Cavatica is offline
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IMO the problems with veteran acquisitions have been:

1) Bad talent evaluation. The track record with veterans has been just as bad as with prospects. If that's going to continue, then loading up on prospects is the better strategy.

2) Failure to understand that a 5 WAR player is worth more than five 1 WAR players, because the 1 WAR players are much easier to come by. It's much easier to upgrade the four other spots after signing a 5 WAR player.

It's not cheapness per se. The Sox have been willing to spend fair market value to bring in middling/declining talents but went cheap on prime/mid-career talents like Machado (and I assume Harper).
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  #72  
Old 09-13-2019, 12:29 PM
ChiSoxNationPres ChiSoxNationPres is offline
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Originally Posted by A. Cavatica View Post
IMO the problems with veteran acquisitions have been:

1) Bad talent evaluation. The track record with veterans has been just as bad as with prospects. If that's going to continue, then loading up on prospects is the better strategy.

2) Failure to understand that a 5 WAR player is worth more than five 1 WAR players, because the 1 WAR players are much easier to come by. It's much easier to upgrade the four other spots after signing a 5 WAR player.

It's not cheapness per se. The Sox have been willing to spend fair market value to bring in middling/declining talents but went cheap on prime/mid-career talents like Machado (and I assume Harper).

It's not cheapness, it's being risk adverse.

Jerry signed Albert Belle to the first $10mil AAV ever in MLB.

He offered Machado $31.25mil AAV, over the $30mil he signed for.

He just doesn't want the risk of these long contracts hindering him in the future. He sees the Pujols, Miggy, Hampton, Zito, Tulo, Fielder, etc contracts and doesn't want that to happen to the Sox.

But yes, his problem is ultimately spending the same amount of money on mid tier players to shorter term deals because they are less risk to him. Ultimately when they consistently fail will those mid tier signings it's the same as being saddled with a bad longer term high AAV deal. I think he is closer than ever to pulling the trigger on a longer term deal as we saw this past offseason.

In the 2000s the Sox were consistently in the top 10 in payroll, so he's willing to spend money, just needs to allocate it better obviously.
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  #73  
Old 09-13-2019, 04:17 PM
Mohoney Mohoney is offline
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Originally Posted by ChiSoxNationPres View Post
It's not cheapness, it's being risk adverse.

Jerry signed Albert Belle to the first $10mil AAV ever in MLB.

He offered Machado $31.25mil AAV, over the $30mil he signed for.

He just doesn't want the risk of these long contracts hindering him in the future. He sees the Pujols, Miggy, Hampton, Zito, Tulo, Fielder, etc contracts and doesn't want that to happen to the Sox.

But yes, his problem is ultimately spending the same amount of money on mid tier players to shorter term deals because they are less risk to him. Ultimately when they consistently fail will those mid tier signings it's the same as being saddled with a bad longer term high AAV deal. I think he is closer than ever to pulling the trigger on a longer term deal as we saw this past offseason.

In the 2000s the Sox were consistently in the top 10 in payroll, so he's willing to spend money, just needs to allocate it better obviously.
The $1 million extra AAV on Machado pales in comparison to the $50 million in total guaranteed dollars that were missing from Jerry’s offer. In the end, it’s still 83 cents on the dollar, which is typical of this bunch.

We’re approaching the silver anniversary of that Belle signing. I’m not really in a generous enough mood to dust off that antique and heap praises on Reinsdorf for it, especially after he let the deal become void for chump change.
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  #74  
Old 09-13-2019, 08:48 PM
cornball cornball is offline
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You realize MLB is doing away with the 40 man roster next year.....aren't you?
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  #75  
Old 09-13-2019, 09:06 PM
Mohoney Mohoney is offline
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You realize MLB is doing away with the 40 man roster next year.....aren't you?
No they’re not. They’re only doing away with the ability to call up all 40 guys in September.
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