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  #16  
Old 11-09-2017, 08:08 PM
A. Cavatica A. Cavatica is offline
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What's the argument for putting him in the Hall?

The Hall should be for on-the-field contributions. Managers, GMs, owners only in exceptional circumstances (long and meritorious service to the game of baseball as experienced by the fans). NEVER for lawyers, agents, politicians.

I'd put the guy who decided to try selling churros at the park in the Hall before Miller.
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  #17  
Old 11-11-2017, 11:22 AM
Andrew C White Andrew C White is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by A. Cavatica View Post
What's the argument for putting him in the Hall?

The Hall should be for on-the-field contributions. Managers, GMs, owners only in exceptional circumstances (long and meritorious service to the game of baseball as experienced by the fans). NEVER for lawyers, agents, politicians.

I'd put the guy who decided to try selling churros at the park in the Hall before Miller.
That's because of your very negative opinion of his impact on the game but it also shows exactly why he belongs in the Hall. He had a huge impact on the game by strengthening the players freedom and ability to profit from their own labors.

I agree with you about the negative impacts of free agency on the ability of teams to develop their own organizations and I regret seeing team favorites walk away to other teams late in the careers if not mid-prime.

BUT... that pales in comparison to my support for players to get their fair share of the pie.

That all of baseball (and other sports and movies and music and other forms of entertainment) make outrageous sums of money beyond what they are actually worth has nothing to do with Miller and can't be blamed on him. That players aren't "property" of owners anymore is largely due to him... and Curt Flood.
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  #18  
Old 11-11-2017, 12:28 PM
A. Cavatica A. Cavatica is offline
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Originally Posted by Andrew C White View Post
BUT... that pales in comparison to my support for players to get their fair share of the pie.

That all of baseball (and other sports and movies and music and other forms of entertainment) make outrageous sums of money beyond what they are actually worth has nothing to do with Miller and can't be blamed on him. That players aren't "property" of owners anymore is largely due to him... and Curt Flood.
If the HoF were for the players, I'd have no argument. But what Miller did for baseball was at best unrelated to the popularity of baseball with fans -- which is what I think the HoF is about -- and at worst quite damaging.

I'll assume that if you are for player freedom, you also think baseball doesn't deserve its antitrust exemption. So let's say a congressman leads a successful charge to revoke the antitrust exemption. One possible result is that several teams relocate. Some owners get rich, some suffer from increased competition, some fan bases benefit, some fan bases get screwed. Would you be arguing that the congressman deserves to go into the HoF?
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  #19  
Old 11-11-2017, 04:08 PM
Andrew C White Andrew C White is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by A. Cavatica View Post
If the HoF were for the players, I'd have no argument. But what Miller did for baseball was at best unrelated to the popularity of baseball with fans -- which is what I think the HoF is about -- and at worst quite damaging.

I'll assume that if you are for player freedom, you also think baseball doesn't deserve its antitrust exemption. So let's say a congressman leads a successful charge to revoke the antitrust exemption. One possible result is that several teams relocate. Some owners get rich, some suffer from increased competition, some fan bases benefit, some fan bases get screwed. Would you be arguing that the congressman deserves to go into the HoF?
I don't find that to be an equivalent argument. Personally I would keep the HOF for players but it's not and since it's not then guys like Miller should be there.

As for anti-trust... I've never looked into the arguments pro and con for that in the world of sports leagues. I'd have to get back to you on that. But in general I don't see much reason why any company or industry should be exempt. Since the gutting of the anti-trust act in the '70's our economy has served a very elite few and not the rest of us. Monopolies and cartels are swallowing both our economy and democracy whole. If major league baseball is part of that then there is no reason they should be exempted from the solution just because I like the game.
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  #20  
Old 11-11-2017, 06:11 PM
Lip Man 1 Lip Man 1 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrew C White View Post
That's because of your very negative opinion of his impact on the game but it also shows exactly why he belongs in the Hall. He had a huge impact on the game by strengthening the players freedom and ability to profit from their own labors.

I agree with you about the negative impacts of free agency on the ability of teams to develop their own organizations and I regret seeing team favorites walk away to other teams late in the careers if not mid-prime.

BUT... that pales in comparison to my support for players to get their fair share of the pie.

That all of baseball (and other sports and movies and music and other forms of entertainment) make outrageous sums of money beyond what they are actually worth has nothing to do with Miller and can't be blamed on him. That players aren't "property" of owners anymore is largely due to him... and Curt Flood.
Very well stated.
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  #21  
Old 11-12-2017, 02:13 AM
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Nellie_Fox Nellie_Fox is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrew C White View Post
Since the gutting of the anti-trust act in the '70's our economy has served a very elite few and not the rest of us. Monopolies and cartels are swallowing both our economy and democracy whole. If major league baseball is part of that then there is no reason they should be exempted from the solution just because I like the game.
Heading into politics. Don't.
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  #22  
Old 11-13-2017, 09:04 PM
asindc asindc is offline
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Originally Posted by Noneck View Post
Every pro athlete should go and genuflect at his plaque.
This.
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  #23  
Old 11-14-2017, 10:34 PM
Falstaff Falstaff is offline
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Luis Tiant and Tommy John
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  #24  
Old 11-15-2017, 05:09 AM
Grzegorz Grzegorz is online now
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In the Hall yes; mixed in with the players? No.

Guys like Ed Barrow, Hap Chandler, Ford Frick, Branch Rickey and Marvin Miller should have their own wing. An architects/executive wing.
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  #25  
Old 11-15-2017, 07:21 AM
SoxandtheCityTee SoxandtheCityTee is offline
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Jack Morris sure seemed to beat us a lot, but that's just a bitter fan going off memories of some cold, losing Opening Days against the Tigers.

Tommy John's name is mentioned more often than the others because of the hugely successful surgical technique he agreed to be a guinea pig for. Not sure that merits the Hall, but I do have a liking for durable, soft-throwing Sox lefties who came from the Midwest.
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  #26  
Old 12-11-2017, 09:41 PM
Andrew C White Andrew C White is offline
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Originally Posted by Andrew C White View Post
9 players and 1 union leader on the list for consideration. All very good but all on that border line for Hall of Fame or Hall of Very Good.

Steve Garvey, Tommy John, Don Mattingly, Jack Morris, Dale Murphy, Dave Parker, Ted Simmons, Luis Tiant, Alan Trammell, and Marvin Miller.

For me there are three no-brainers:

Alan Trammell
Ted Simmons
Jack Morris

They get to vote for five and I would add Dave Parker and Marvin Miller. They have to show up on 12 of 16 ballots to get in.

http://m.whitesox.mlb.com/news/artic...picId=27118146
Very pleased that 2 of the 3 I believe deserved the vote got elected. Very sad to see Simmons miss out by 1 vote. He deserves it every bit as much as half the guys in the Hall.
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