42

[spawn]

Originally Posted by RKMeibalane

I was thinking more along the lines of Lando Calrissian.

Damn. How did I miss that?

[cub killer]

Originally Posted by spawn

In who's eyes? They still would not have been deemed equal in terms of playing side by side with MLB'ers. It was bout more than just a game.

I find this hard to comprehend. So you're saying that if the Negro Leagues proved to the world that they were equal or better than the NL/AL by beating them in the World Series, they would still not be as popular simply because they were black?

If society's mentality was that horrible back then, then I'm glad I didn't live it.

[RKMeibalane]

Originally Posted by cub killer

I find this hard to comprehend. So you're saying that if the Negro Leagues proved to the world that they were equal or better than the NL/AL by beating them in the World Series, they would still not be as popular simply because they were black?

If society's mentality was that horrible back then, then I'm glad I didn't live it.

It was that bad. I'm not convinced it's much better today, although for somewhat different reasons than racism. I won't say anymore than that for fear of getting my post moved to the ****house.

[chicagowhitesox1]

Originally Posted by spawn

I don't think I've made Rickey into a saint at all. The bottom line is, Rickey probably saw more dollars at the gate, black people spending their money, to watch blacks play baseball. And I've never said Rickey was 100% responsible for Robinson breaking the color barrier. I'm giving Ricky credit for the player chosen to integrate the league. You seem to be giving MLB the credit. And you said Rickey voted to keep Robinson out in '46? He signed Robinson to a minor league contract in '45. Why would he then vote to keep him out in '46? That makes absolutely no sense. Do you have proof? You keep making these outlandish statements, but have nothing to back them up.

So you have no proof then. You make the statement, but want me to prove it for you. Yeah...ok.

I'm at work right now but I really don't know how to give you proof. I'm pretty new to the internet. All I can tell you is read articles or books from players who played in the Negro leagues. I'll try to get a decent source tommorow when i come home. All I'm trying to say is the movie 42 as good as it was isn;t as accurate as you think. It;s a little dramatic for my taste. I'll be honest though, everything I look up about robinson on the internet only tells me how great of a person he was. As for Branch Rickey and your quip. I can tell your the type of person who will bash me but in a week or so you will tell others a different story on what you think about jackie Robinson. Your just looking for an argument.

[spawn]

Originally Posted by chicagowhitesox1

I'm at work right now but I really don't know how to give you proof. I'm pretty new to the internet. All I can tell you is read articles or books from players who played in the Negro leagues. I'll try to get a decent source tommorow when i come home. All I'm trying to say is the movie 42 as good as it was isn;t as accurate as you think. It;s a little dramatic for my taste. I'll be honest though, everything I look up about robinson on the internet only tells me how great of a person he was. As for Branch Rickey and your quip. I can tell your the type of person who will bash me but in a week or so you will tell others a different story on what you think about jackie Robinson. Your just looking for an argument.

Not looking for an argument. Usually when someone makes a statement like you did, then it is on them to provide proof. Telling me to read articles on the Negro Leagues, something I've done, doesn't cut it. And I'll tell others a different story on Robinson? Yeah...ok.

[TDog]

Originally Posted by chicagowhitesox1

I obviously wouldn't say that but Josh Gibson really wanted to be the first Negro League player to break the barrier but baseball waited until they found the right man which Robinson obviously was but at the same time is it really right to pick Robinson over Gibson. Gibson was going to be called up in the early 40's but baseball decided to pass on him. Jackie Robinson never payed very much respect to those veteran Negro Leaguers. Maybe because he figured they were jealous of him and maybe Robinson didn't realize he was slightng them but alot of those guys did feel slighted. It's kinda like how a guy at work gets a promotion and everyone is clapping their hands for him but in the background they are saying he didn't deserve this.

Granted, my knowlege isn't first-hand, but I researched Negro League baseball and major league integration long ago when I was in college, reading several histories and going through newspaper stories. I have no idea what you are talking about.

Josh Gibson was diagnosed with a brain tumor in 1943, for which he had brain surgery. Leading up to that and thereafter, he wasn't the same hitter or catcher he was in the earlier in his career. There were also drug problems that seem to have affected his play in the later years and may be linked to the brain surgery.

The popular belief is that Josh Gibson died of a broken heart, being overlooked by major league baseball. He died before Jackie Robinson played his first game, after suffering a stroke. At some points, his sanity seems to have been questioned. There were years in the late 1930 and early 1940s when he didn't even play in the Negro Leagues, but in Mexico and the Dominincan Republic. The leagues he played for didn't keep meticulous records (i.e. no one ever officially counted his home runs, and I have seen no documentation to show he hit 200 let alone 800.) The legend of Babe Ruth is embellished documented fact. The legend of Josh Gibson is legend. It's a fine legend, but he was born to early to play major league baseball.

What most confuses me about your position is the implication that there was some sort of conspiracy to integrate baseball. Branch Rickey was on his own in signing Robinson. Affter the war, after the death of Landis, there were a lot of people who believed MLB integration was inevitable. Wendell Smith, who I used to watch do WGN sports when I was a kid, was one of the journalists leading the fight. But before Jackie Robinson broke in, no one was signing Negro League players except Branch Rickey. And there were many in and around baseball who didn't like it, including The Sporting News.

There wasn't going to be MLB integration as long as Landis was alive, which left Josh Gibson well out of the picture. The best player in the Negro Leagues at the time Robinson broke the color barrier, if you read contemporary reports, was believed to be Monte Irvin, who approached by Branch Rickey in 1945. Irvin reportedly said he wasn't in baseball shape. Irvin didn't make it the majors until 1949 when he debuted with the Giants, who retired his number in San Francisco last summer. (Somewhere, I have a baseball signed by Monte Irvin, Bob Gibson and Bob Feller, but I digress.)

No one, including Robinson, ever said Robinson was the best player in the Negro Leagues. Of course, there were star Negro Leaguers who were publicly jealous that they didn't get the first call. But breaking baseball's color barrier wasn't just about baseball. I don't know if there was anyone who was better who had the character to do what he did.

[SI1020]

Originally Posted by cub killer

I find this hard to comprehend. So you're saying that if the Negro Leagues proved to the world that they were equal or better than the NL/AL by beating them in the World Series, they would still not be as popular simply because they were black?

If society's mentality was that horrible back then, then I'm glad I didn't live it.

I don't want to start a ****storm but it is futile to judge a past era by today's standards, and there are a lot of bad misconceptions about what life was like back then. Of course I believe we have come a long way. Also, FWIW it was not uncommon to have a significant white presence at some Negro League games. Negro League teams and players also barnstormed all across small town and rural America and played to big enthusiastic crowds.

[doublem23]

Originally Posted by SI1020

I don't want to start a ****storm but it is futile to judge a past era by today's standards, and there are a lot of bad misconceptions about what life was like back then. Of course I believe we have come a long way. Also, FWIW it was not uncommon to have a significant white presence at some Negro League games. Negro League teams and players also barnstormed all across small town and rural America and played to big enthusiastic crowds.

I think it's wrong to judge individual people for their actions when they were considered "normal" during their lifetimes, but I think we can all also agree that, for now the majority of the American population, the society of yesteryear was ****ing awful and we're better off now than we were then.

[RKMeibalane]

Originally Posted by chicagowhitesox1

I'm at work right now but I really don't know how to give you proof. I'm pretty new to the internet. All I can tell you is read articles or books from players who played in the Negro leagues. I'll try to get a decent source tommorow when i come home. All I'm trying to say is the movie 42 as good as it was isn;t as accurate as you think. It;s a little dramatic for my taste. I'll be honest though, everything I look up about robinson on the internet only tells me how great of a person he was. As for Branch Rickey and your quip. I can tell your the type of person who will bash me but in a week or so you will tell others a different story on what you think about jackie Robinson. Your just looking for an argument.

I don't know what this means.

[spawn]

Originally Posted by cub killer

I find this hard to comprehend. So you're saying that if the Negro Leagues proved to the world that they were equal or better than the NL/AL by beating them in the World Series, they would still not be as popular simply because they were black?

If society's mentality was that horrible back then, then I'm glad I didn't live it.

Well, considering in parts of the country back then, blacks were forced to sit in the back of the bus, or give their seat up to a white person if there were no other seats available, weren't allowed to eat at lunch counters, weren't allowed to stay in certain hotels, were forced to drink from separate water fountains or use separate bathrooms than whites...I could go on.

[chicagowhitesox1]

Originally Posted by TDog

Granted, my knowlege isn't first-hand, but I researched Negro League baseball and major league integration long ago when I was in college, reading several histories and going through newspaper stories. I have no idea what you are talking about.

Josh Gibson was diagnosed with a brain tumor in 1943, for which he had brain surgery. Leading up to that and thereafter, he wasn't the same hitter or catcher he was in the earlier in his career. There were also drug problems that seem to have affected his play in the later years and may be linked to the brain surgery.

The popular belief is that Josh Gibson died of a broken heart, being overlooked by major league baseball. He died before Jackie Robinson played his first game, after suffering a stroke. At some points, his sanity seems to have been questioned. There were years in the late 1930 and early 1940s when he didn't even play in the Negro Leagues, but in Mexico and the Dominincan Republic. The leagues he played for didn't keep meticulous records (i.e. no one ever officially counted his home runs, and I have seen no documentation to show he hit 200 let alone 800.) The legend of Babe Ruth is embellished documented fact. The legend of Josh Gibson is legend. It's a fine legend, but he was born to early to play major league baseball.

What most confuses me about your position is the implication that there was some sort of conspiracy to integrate baseball. Branch Rickey was on his own in signing Robinson. Affter the war, after the death of Landis, there were a lot of people who believed MLB integration was inevitable. Wendell Smith, who I used to watch do WGN sports when I was a kid, was one of the journalists leading the fight. But before Jackie Robinson broke in, no one was signing Negro League players except Branch Rickey. And there were many in and around baseball who didn't like it, including The Sporting News.

There wasn't going to be MLB integration as long as Landis was alive, which left Josh Gibson well out of the picture. The best player in the Negro Leagues at the time Robinson broke the color barrier, if you read contemporary reports, was believed to be Monte Irvin, who approached by Branch Rickey in 1945. Irvin reportedly said he wasn't in baseball shape. Irvin didn't make it the majors until 1949 when he debuted with the Giants, who retired his number in San Francisco last summer. (Somewhere, I have a baseball signed by Monte Irvin, Bob Gibson and Bob Feller, but I digress.)

No one, including Robinson, ever said Robinson was the best player in the Negro Leagues. Of course, there were star Negro Leaguers who were publicly jealous that they didn't get the first call. But breaking baseball's color barrier wasn't just about baseball. I don't know if there was anyone who was better who had the character to do what he did.

I agree with you on this except for Rickey wasn't on his own in signing Robinson. He even admitted that if it wasn't for Chandler, Robinson wouldn't have played. I know Robinson wasn't the best player and I realize he was picked for other reasons than his ability. (which I don't know if anyone could have been better) but basically I was hoping for a movie that was more like a documentary. Jackie Robinson had a problem with black players who weren't into civil rights and he looked down upon players who drank or womanized. If I recall correctly, thats why Campanella and Robinson clashed. I do agree with you on Gibson and I worded that wrong earlier but Monte Irvin got shafted. I'm not exactly sure why he said he wasn't in baseball shape because he sure hit well in the Negro Leagues. But I have no reason not to believe you.

[chicagowhitesox1]

Originally Posted by RKMeibalane

I don't know what this means.

It means i'm new to the internet.

[RKMeibalane]

Originally Posted by chicagowhitesox1

It means i'm new to the internet.

I see. Welcome to the World Wide Web, designed and built by former Vice President Al Gore.

[chicagowhitesox1]

Originally Posted by RKMeibalane

I see. Welcome to the World Wide Web, designed and built by former Vice President Al Gore.

Thanks.

[spawn]

Originally Posted by chicagowhitesox1

Jackie Robinson had a problem with black players who weren't into civil rights and he looked down upon players who drank or womanized. If I recall correctly, thats why Campanella and Robinson clashed. I do agree with you on Gibson and I worded that wrong earlier but Monte Irvin got shafted. I'm not exactly sure why he said he wasn't in baseball shape because he sure hit well in the Negro Leagues. But I have no reason not to believe you.

Ok...I don't see the problem with his opinions of black players that drank or were womanizers. Considering how far they came, the last thing needed at that time was to give a reason why they shouldn't be allowed in the game. It feeds the stereotype. You made it seem like he snubbed his nose at all black players. And his opinion on players that weren't involved in civil rights is fine by me too, given the time and attitudes of that era. And Monte Irvin shafted himself. He told Rickey he wasn't ready.

As far as Chandler and Rickey go...well, yes. Chandler was the commissioner. Without his blessing, Robinson would not have been allowed to play. But again...no one has said Rickey was 100% responsible, but he is 100% responsible with regards to who was chosen.