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  #46  
Old 08-17-2018, 12:49 PM
Mohoney Mohoney is offline
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Originally Posted by TomBradley72
I'm neutral on Hahn for now- the results on the field (starting next year) will tell the tale. IMHO what really killed the "pre-rebuild" White Sox was the failure of Matt Davidson to establish himself as a quality, every day 3rd baseman and Avi Garcia doing the same in RF- they were both highly touted prospects when acquired, and if they had been quality pieces to add to the "core" of Abreu, Sale, Quintana, Eaton the Sox might have had enough to build around.
I would add Tyler Flowers to that list. He sucked when he was here.
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  #47  
Old 08-17-2018, 12:55 PM
blurry blurry is offline
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I would add Tyler Flowers to that list. He sucked when he was here.
No he did not. Other than his 2013 year, he was an above average catcher and was one of the best (if not the best) pitch framer in baseball. People hated him because his name didn't begin with "AJ".
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  #48  
Old 08-17-2018, 12:58 PM
Frater Perdurabo Frater Perdurabo is offline
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No he did not. Other than his 2013 year, he was an above average catcher and was one of the best (if not the best) pitch framer in baseball. People hated him because his name didn't begin with "AJ".
If you want to get angry at Hahn, exhibit A was dumping Flowers for Dioner Navarro.
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  #49  
Old 08-17-2018, 01:08 PM
Mohoney Mohoney is offline
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Originally Posted by blurry
No he did not. Other than his 2013 year, he was an above average catcher and was one of the best (if not the best) pitch framer in baseball. People hated him because his name didn't begin with "AJ".
Pitch framing is the one area of SABR that I think is completely overblown. Let’s say a really good pitch framer gets somewhere in the vicinity of +80 to +100 calls over the course of 100 games caught. Am I to believe that an average of roughly one extra strike per game should make up for a guy who was as putrid at blocking balls in the dirt and hitting with runners in scoring position as Flowers was when he was here?

I was glad when they got rid of Flowers, and I’m not holding it against Hahn that Flowers suddenly found his bat when he arrived in Atlanta.
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  #50  
Old 08-17-2018, 01:26 PM
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voodoochile voodoochile is offline
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Pitch framing is the one area of SABR that I think is completely overblown. Letís say a really good pitch framer gets somewhere in the vicinity of +80 to +100 calls over the course of 100 games caught. Am I to believe that an average of roughly one extra strike per game should make up for a guy who was as putrid at blocking balls in the dirt and hitting with runners in scoring position as Flowers was when he was here?

I was glad when they got rid of Flowers, and Iím not holding it against Hahn that Flowers suddenly found his bat when he arrived in Atlanta.
He hasn't really found his bat. I mean he's been solid and he had a couple nice years prior to this year, but he's also 32. This year his splits against RHP make Moncada look good against LHP.

Flowers was always at best a platoon catcher. Though the Braves don't have a strict platoon, he's still only seen about 300 AB/year in his time there.

Nice piece but hardly a game changer.
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  #51  
Old 08-17-2018, 01:39 PM
TomBradley72 TomBradley72 is offline
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No he did not. Other than his 2013 year, he was an above average catcher and was one of the best (if not the best) pitch framer in baseball. People hated him because his name didn't begin with "AJ".
I disagree- while he was solid at pitch framing- it was like he was trying to catch the ball with boxing gloves- he was pretty bad defensively- he lost a pretty significant amount of weight after joining the Braves- which seemed to really help him improve.

In 2015 (age 29)- he was approximately 10th among AL catchers (regulars) in OPS, 3rd in the AL with 16 passed balls, and had the 2nd worst caught stealing percentage among AL catchers.
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  #52  
Old 08-17-2018, 02:03 PM
Frater Perdurabo Frater Perdurabo is offline
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Originally Posted by voodoochile View Post
Flowers was always at best a platoon catcher. Though the Braves don't have a strict platoon, he's still only seen about 300 AB/year in his time there.

Nice piece but hardly a game changer.

Flowers would have been a good platoon partner for Avila.


Downgrading that half of the platoon from Flowers to Navarro was a disaster, and there's no sugarcoating the steaming pile of **** Navarro left at and behind the plate.
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  #53  
Old 08-17-2018, 04:15 PM
asindc asindc is offline
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Originally Posted by Mohoney View Post
Pitch framing is the one area of SABR that I think is completely overblown. Letís say a really good pitch framer gets somewhere in the vicinity of +80 to +100 calls over the course of 100 games caught. Am I to believe that an average of roughly one extra strike per game should make up for a guy who was as putrid at blocking balls in the dirt and hitting with runners in scoring position as Flowers was when he was here?

I was glad when they got rid of Flowers, and Iím not holding it against Hahn that Flowers suddenly found his bat when he arrived in Atlanta.
On this, I agree with you. Flowersí framing was not good enough to make up for his deficiencies in just about every other aspect of the game.
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