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View Poll Results: How worried are you about Moncada?
Not worried 19 20.65%
Somewhat worried 26 28.26%
Worried 20 21.74%
Very worried 20 21.74%
Only worried if he hates churros 7 7.61%
Voters: 92. You may not vote on this poll

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  #16  
Old 08-08-2018, 01:38 PM
blandman blandman is offline
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Originally Posted by mzh View Post
Think about this for a second... you're basically saying that what a player is when he's a rookie is what he'll be for the rest of his career. Come on, man. You know that's not true. Jose Ramirez is having an all time great season right now and by this logic Cleveland should have cut him three years ago. We don't need that kind of hyperbole.
I'm only relaying what I see in his at bats, which is an unsustainable approach that isn't a quick adjustment on the fly to get away from.

There isn't a universal "he's a rookie" blanket that covers everything. Yeah, he's a rookie, but he's also a rookie that is completely lost and is steadily regressing.
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  #17  
Old 08-08-2018, 01:38 PM
LoveYourSuit LoveYourSuit is offline
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Originally Posted by guillensdisciple View Post
I really think Sox fans need to be patient. He is young, he is talented, and deserves the time to show us who he is.

For ****s sake, we were all much more forgiving of Beckham even though he had fewer positives than Moncada.

It looks ugly right now, but James Fegan made an excellent point on twitter. The Sox never gave in on Avisail, and waited his progression out. He is slowly beginning to pay dividends.

Moncada is far more talented, and the Sox will not give up on him anytime soon.

Besides, the pressure will be off of him in a little bit when Eloy and Kopech are up, and he is no longer the only hope for the future.

Let it play out. If by 2020, he is still garbage, then we can call it a wash and see what we can do.

Right, he's finally paying some sort of dividend one year away from free agency now. And we still don't even know what he really is.



I don't think the White Sox (of all teams) are in this position where "Can't miss prospects" will need 3-4 ML season to develop into what they can be. Moncada, Kopech, Eloy, Robert, Cease, Rodon, Giolito, Madrigal type prospects need to be guys who hit the floor running when they get here. Not saying superstar players out of the gate, but show that they belong from day 1 along with progression throughout the season.
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  #18  
Old 08-08-2018, 01:40 PM
blandman blandman is offline
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Originally Posted by guillensdisciple View Post
https://www.baseball-reference.com/p...amirjo01.shtml

Ramirez for reference, and Altuve was a negative WAR player for the first three years of his career. Not sure what else there is to say then to wait it out.
Stats versus scouting. We are talking about different things. Those guys were learning and making slight adjustments. I'm saying Moncada cannot succeed with the way he's doing things, and he needs to do them so different that it may take him years to re-learn how to take an at bat. What I am doubting is whether that will actually happen, because the adjustment necessary is so profound.
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  #19  
Old 08-08-2018, 01:41 PM
guillensdisciple guillensdisciple is offline
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Originally Posted by LoveYourSuit View Post
Right, he's finally paying some sort of dividend one year away from free agency now. And we still don't even know what he really is.



I don't think the White Sox (of all teams) are in this position where "Can't miss prospects" will need 3-4 ML season to develop into what they can be. Moncada, Kopech, Eloy, Robert, Cease, Rodon, Giolito, Madrigal type prospects need to be guys who hit the floor running when they get here. Not saying superstar players out of the gate, but show that they belong from day 1 along with progression throughout the season.
I think, as a previous poster mentioned, you will have some who are stars right away, some who are average, and some who are poor. The average and star ones will cover for the poor ones. Or we will bring someone up to replace him out of that much improved minor league systen.
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  #20  
Old 08-08-2018, 01:42 PM
mzh mzh is offline
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Originally Posted by blandman View Post
Stats versus scouting. We are talking about different things. Those guys were learning and making slight adjustments. I'm saying Moncada cannot succeed with the way he's doing things, and he needs to do them so different that it may take him years to re-learn how to take an at bat. What I am doubting is whether that will actually happen.
What is it specifically in his approach and mechanics that you think just won't allow him to succeed as is?
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  #21  
Old 08-08-2018, 01:42 PM
guillensdisciple guillensdisciple is offline
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Originally Posted by blandman View Post
Stats versus scouting. We are talking about different things. Those guys were learning and making slight adjustments. I'm saying Moncada cannot succeed with the way he's doing things, and he needs to do them so different that it may take him years to re-learn how to take an at bat. What I am doubting is whether that will actually happen.
Fair, but the implication here is that Yoan is too dumb to make adjustments. Is there proof that he is?
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  #22  
Old 08-08-2018, 01:44 PM
blandman blandman is offline
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Originally Posted by guillensdisciple View Post
I am pretty sure many of those were in 3/2 situations.
The problem with that is

1.) it's subjective

2.) Moncada can't cover close pitches like most players in a 3-2 count because his contact rate in the zone is worst in baseball. If he swung at close pitches, he'd swing through almost all of them.
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  #23  
Old 08-08-2018, 01:45 PM
blandman blandman is offline
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Fair, but the implication here is that Yoan is too dumb to make adjustments. Is there proof that he is?
Dumb? Stubborn?

It's not easy to tell a guy after big league action that in order to succeed we need to send you to the minors for the next couple of seasons to completely rebuild your approach.
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  #24  
Old 08-08-2018, 01:46 PM
LoveYourSuit LoveYourSuit is offline
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Originally Posted by guillensdisciple View Post
https://www.baseball-reference.com/p...amirjo01.shtml

Ramirez for reference, and Altuve was a negative WAR player for the first three years of his career. Not sure what else there is to say then to wait it out.

Ramirez and Altuve never sniffed a top 100 prospect spot for any publication. Those guys were never expected to be this good.



Hate to keep reminding folks, Yoan Moncada was the #1 prospect in the entire game of baseball.



Think about this.


He shouldn't be making lists with names like Joey Gallo, Chris Carter, Mark Reynolds.
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  #25  
Old 08-08-2018, 01:48 PM
blandman blandman is offline
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Originally Posted by mzh View Post
What is it specifically in his approach and mechanics that you think just won't allow him to succeed as is?
Most of the time he starts his swing too late. His bat speed is not so great that he can make up for it at this level. In the minors that wasn't an issue. It's a function of his batting eye. In order to be successful, he'll either start his approach sooner (meaning worse eye) or take more of a contact approach in the zone (which will mean less power potential). I think the latter would still make him a damn good player, and he's strong enough that he'd still have decent pop. But it isn't an "adjustment", its changing your entire lifetime approach to something very different.
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  #26  
Old 08-08-2018, 01:52 PM
LoveYourSuit LoveYourSuit is offline
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Originally Posted by guillensdisciple View Post
I think, as a previous poster mentioned, you will have some who are stars right away, some who are average, and some who are poor. The average and star ones will cover for the poor ones. Or we will bring someone up to replace him out of that much improved minor league systen.

If we don't hit on top elite prospects like Moncada and Giolito often enough, then this rebuild is going to fail.

I hope we all understand this.

And don't look to free agency as the parachute, we know that's not happening. Not for elite ML proven ballplayers at $200 million contracts. We'd be back to the patchwork days once again.
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  #27  
Old 08-08-2018, 01:57 PM
mzh mzh is offline
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Originally Posted by blandman View Post
Most of the time he starts his swing too late. His bat speed is not so great that he can make up for it at this level. In the minors that wasn't an issue. It's a function of his batting eye. In order to be successful, he'll either start his approach sooner (meaning worse eye) or take more of a contact approach in the zone (which will mean less power potential). I think the latter would still make him a damn good player, and he's strong enough that he'd still have decent pop. But it isn't an "adjustment", its changing your entire lifetime approach to something very different.
The batting eye is more than a function of starting a swing earlier or later, though. It's about pitch recognition, which is something that absolutely can be improved to tangible results (see Davidson, Matt). I also disagree with regards to his bat speed--hit bat speed is close to elite, but the book on him coming up through the minors was that his bat control wasn't quite there to match, which is why he has trouble making contact in the zone, but his contact is so good when he does get it. I'm not sure why you think those flaws are so drastically internalized within him that he can't change or adjust them. Once again, a player with a similar profile was Javier Baez, but with a much worse batting eye. These are things that can be fixed, it just takes work and time. That means we're not just going to turn on the TV four months into the season and see a different swing. It's something that happens gradually, with a lot of reps, and eventually, the results start coming. Sometimes that takes years, even when you're a top 10, top 5 prospect.
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  #28  
Old 08-08-2018, 01:59 PM
mzh mzh is offline
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Originally Posted by LoveYourSuit View Post
If we don't hit on top elite prospects like Moncada and Giolito often enough, then this rebuild is going to fail.

I hope we all understand this.

And don't look to free agency as the parachute, we know that's not happening. Not for elite ML proven ballplayers at $200 million contracts. We'd be back to the patchwork days once again.
You can't change the process because one guy was more highly regarded than the other. You can't explain Moncada to flip a switch one day just because he was more highly touted than everyone else. He is what he is, and if it takes three years to reach his potential instead of six months, then so be it. Freaking out and giving up on him early specifically because he was so highly ranked is totally counterproductive. You say you don't want to go back to the patchwork days, but not giving players the time they need to develop (which, again, is totally different from person to person) is exactly how you end up there.
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  #29  
Old 08-08-2018, 02:04 PM
blandman blandman is offline
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Originally Posted by mzh View Post
The batting eye is more than a function of starting a swing earlier or later, though. It's about pitch recognition, which is something that absolutely can be improved to tangible results (see Davidson, Matt). I also disagree with regards to his bat speed--hit bat speed is close to elite, but the book on him coming up through the minors was that his bat control wasn't quite there to match, which is why he has trouble making contact in the zone, but his contact is so good when he does get it. I'm not sure why you think those flaws are so drastically internalized within him that he can't change or adjust them. Once again, a player with a similar profile was Javier Baez, but with a much worse batting eye. These are things that can be fixed, it just takes work and time. That means we're not just going to turn on the TV four months into the season and see a different swing. It's something that happens gradually, with a lot of reps, and eventually, the results start coming. Sometimes that takes years, even when you're a top 10, top 5 prospect.
His bat speed is very good, but I think that's part of the problem. He was allowed to continue an approach that isn't success at the MLB level.

I don't think we're talking about incredibly different things with bat control and my suggestion of an alteration of his swing. I don't think Baez is a good comparision though, his issues were tied to his inability to hit pitches out of the zone, while Moncada cannot make contact at a decent rate within the strike zone. I don't see this adjustment for Moncada as slight or something he can work with on the fly.
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  #30  
Old 08-08-2018, 02:06 PM
kobo kobo is offline
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Originally Posted by LoveYourSuit View Post
Right, he's finally paying some sort of dividend one year away from free agency now. And we still don't even know what he really is.



I don't think the White Sox (of all teams) are in this position where "Can't miss prospects" will need 3-4 ML season to develop into what they can be. Moncada, Kopech, Eloy, Robert, Cease, Rodon, Giolito, Madrigal type prospects need to be guys who hit the floor running when they get here. Not saying superstar players out of the gate, but show that they belong from day 1 along with progression throughout the season.
I do not agree with this opinion at all. Why are the Sox not in a position to let players develop at the ML level? That's exactly the position they are in right now and exactly why they hit the reset button a couple years ago. This is the process. It's painful, it's ugly, it's difficult to watch but this is all to be expected right now. It seems like to me that people are trying to tie in their irrational fear of the White Sox being "irrelevant" to speeding up this process and claiming the Sox can't afford to be in this position. Which is just a bunch of bull****.
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