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  #16  
Old 09-15-2019, 12:17 AM
TDog TDog is offline
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I believe Covey is a major league pitcher in that he pitches in the major leagues. I believe Cease is a major league pitcher when I apply the same standard. I don't think either should be pitching in the major leagues, although Cease is still a prospect. I'm in the crowd that hopes he gets a lot better as opposed to the crowd that has faith in his imminent blossoming. It has been a very long time since Covey was a first round draft pick. I don't really want to see Fulmer starting either.

If you start from scratch and the pitching you acquire is in the form of prospects who haven't reached the major leagues (and Covey was a notch or two below that, a Rule 5 stopgap for a team that knew it would have someone pitch the innings when the team wasn't hitting), the chances that you can't develop your own starting rotation is pretty good, regardless of the rebuild enthusiasm.

I don't think Covey should be pitching in the majors. I didn't want the White Sox to trade for Shields. And while I was preoccupied with other more important and imperative things and didn't notice, I read where Edwin Jackson started for the Tigers Tuesday with Covey-like results.

If you're going to have a five-man rotation, if you're going to count pitches and limit innings, if you pitchers can't get hitters out with weak contact early in the count while you fawn over their strikeouts, if you're going to trade for pitching prospects that require surgery, which isn't all that uncommon among pitching prospects, you really should expect at least one Covey or Covey equivalent in your starting rotation. Really, you're lucky it isn't worse.

I don't like it. But jettisoning Covey won't get rid of the bad starting pitching. That's something White Sox fans will have to get used to, especially with all the teams in need of starting pitching who will be bidding against the White Sox this offseason.
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  #17  
Old 09-16-2019, 02:48 PM
TheVulture TheVulture is offline
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I think you've got to let Cease take his lumps at the major league level, like Giolito and Lopez. Only way I'd take him out of the rotation is if he's injured or comes down with a case of the yips.
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  #18  
Old 09-16-2019, 03:08 PM
ChiTownTrojan ChiTownTrojan is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TDog View Post
I believe Covey is a major league pitcher in that he pitches in the major leagues. I believe Cease is a major league pitcher when I apply the same standard. I don't think either should be pitching in the major leagues, although Cease is still a prospect. I'm in the crowd that hopes he gets a lot better as opposed to the crowd that has faith in his imminent blossoming. It has been a very long time since Covey was a first round draft pick. I don't really want to see Fulmer starting either.

If you start from scratch and the pitching you acquire is in the form of prospects who haven't reached the major leagues (and Covey was a notch or two below that, a Rule 5 stopgap for a team that knew it would have someone pitch the innings when the team wasn't hitting), the chances that you can't develop your own starting rotation is pretty good, regardless of the rebuild enthusiasm.

I don't think Covey should be pitching in the majors. I didn't want the White Sox to trade for Shields. And while I was preoccupied with other more important and imperative things and didn't notice, I read where Edwin Jackson started for the Tigers Tuesday with Covey-like results.

If you're going to have a five-man rotation, if you're going to count pitches and limit innings, if you pitchers can't get hitters out with weak contact early in the count while you fawn over their strikeouts, if you're going to trade for pitching prospects that require surgery, which isn't all that uncommon among pitching prospects, you really should expect at least one Covey or Covey equivalent in your starting rotation. Really, you're lucky it isn't worse.

I don't like it. But jettisoning Covey won't get rid of the bad starting pitching. That's something White Sox fans will have to get used to, especially with all the teams in need of starting pitching who will be bidding against the White Sox this offseason.
I know you're not a fan of stocking up on prospects. But I'm curious, what is your preferred method for building a strong major league rotation? Trading for established starters is costly in terms of player assets. Signing 5 established starters is costly in terms of payroll flexibility. So if you're not developing starters and bringing them up from the farm system, where are they going to come from?
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  #19  
Old 09-16-2019, 04:53 PM
TDog TDog is offline
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Originally Posted by ChiTownTrojan View Post
I know you're not a fan of stocking up on prospects. But I'm curious, what is your preferred method for building a strong major league rotation? Trading for established starters is costly in terms of player assets. Signing 5 established starters is costly in terms of payroll flexibility. So if you're not developing starters and bringing them up from the farm system, where are they going to come from?
The White Sox used to do a great job in drafting pitchers and finding pitchers that other teams had given up on for whatever reason, seeing something in them that could be developed. This was true through the Sale/Quintana early years. Even Santiago, a 30th-round pick by the White Sox (who seemed be be worn down before returning to the Sox), appeared to be developing into a pretty good reliever who could step in with a long relief outing and spot start. Identifying and developing pitching talent in throughout the system was a strong point for the team and had more to do with scouting and minor league coaching than the magic of Don Cooper. Even going back before Buehrle was drafted in the 38th round.

Part of the reason the Sox scored so well with pitching in the draft may well have been their emphasis on pitching in the draft. Looking for pitching can be a trap. Ben McDonald was the first-pick prize in the Frank Thomas draft. Stephen Strasburg was the big you'd have-to-be-crazy-not-to-take-him-No. 1 in the Mike Trout draft, although Mark Prior came with the same hype and the Twins went for Joe Mauer. It's easy now to look at Fulmer as being a busted pick, but many wee saying Sale would be what Fulmer turned out to be because of his motion.

The reason the Sox no longer develop great pitchers (Cease doesn't really count in sort of the Holy Roman Empire sense if you want a topic to discuss amongst yourselves) is complicated. Partly its due to the more analytics being used in scouting pitching talent, which is contributing to minor league pitching being so, really so bad in California. Teams stress velocity over the art of pitching. If you are judging pitchers by their strikeouts and increasingly more hitters don't care if they strike out, you aren't looking closely enough at the prospect. Long ago when I taught junior high school and coached a fireballing pitcher on the baseball team, he struck out everyone he didn't walk or allow to split the outfielders with hard line drives. He threw hard enough that he dropped out of high school and was drafted by the Reds and never got beyond A ball where his ERA was 8. By the time he got married, I was a reporter for the local paper where his wedding announcement said he was working at Burger King, no doubt serving up Whoppers to young men he used to strike out.

It's complicated, but the chances of pitching prospects getting hurt is much greater today. The difference between success and failure seems finer. Pitchers are often signed for their velocity and can't pitch once they lose any of it.

The juiced ball (of which, I believe there is no question), the smaller strike zone, the emphasis on strikeouts that produce longer counts, the emphasis on pitch counting, have led to a decline in pitching everywhere. But trading for pitching prospects based on their prospect rating, which is based on analytics that don't do a good job of scouting pitching talent, doesn't produce a high percentage of quality pitching.

The Cubs didn't get their big pitching star in their championship run by trading for a prospect. Signing Lester was part of it, certainly, but if they hadn't traded for Arrieta, in a move that used to be so White Sox), they would still be talking about 1908. Were they lucky? Cubs management has said as much. But I don't know if they were as lucky as if they had traded for a prospect who fulfilled his promise. I never believed the White Sox were lucky when they signed Quintana as a free agent or when they got so much out of Phil Humber up to his perfect game, or when they squeezed a year out of Cal Eldred or when they got so much out of the Cuban pitchers they signed before the 2005 season, or when they traded so much for Freddy Garcia who started the biggest game in Sox history. Still, they did a great job getting John Danks who pitched one secondarily biggest games in Sox history but hit the injury wall.

Unfortunately, there are fans who believe a rebuild is easy and a sure thing (unless ownership screws it up). It's not. It's not easy to build a great starting rotation. The current general manager hasn't demonstrated that he even has any clue on how to build a decent bullpen. There isn't a single answer. But simply trading veterans for prospects who aren't major league ready is a total longshot. My concern with the rebuild has always been that it has lacked baseball intelligence, although many who have total faith in analytics disagree with me and even insist this has been a successful year for the White Sox.
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  #20  
Old 09-21-2019, 09:43 AM
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Chez Chez is offline
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Covey was placed on the injured list yesterday with right shoulder inflammation. The only reason I can think of for putting a player on the IL with a week to go in the season is to prevent the manager from being tempted to use him in a game.
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  #21  
Old 09-21-2019, 10:57 AM
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Originally Posted by Chez View Post
Covey was placed on the injured list yesterday with right shoulder inflammation. The only reason I can think of for putting a player on the IL with a week to go in the season is to prevent the manager from being tempted to use him in a game.
Might actually be a prelude to placing him on the 60 day DL to help them manipulate the 40 man roster.
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