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  #16  
Old 09-13-2019, 04:28 PM
Mohoney Mohoney is offline
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Originally Posted by TDog View Post
The idea that a hitter giving himself up with a bunt single should get the manager fired while a hitter giving himself up to take a walk should draw praise for the hitting coach, which is the logical extension of this ongoing discussion, is nonsense.
Your argument is invalid because outs exist. Zero walks result in outs. A nonzero amount of bunts result in outs.
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  #17  
Old 09-13-2019, 04:51 PM
TDog TDog is online now
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Originally Posted by Mohoney View Post
Your argument is invalid because outs exist. Zero walks result in outs. A nonzero amount of bunts result in outs.
My argument is deceptive because it takes into account reality. Despite the semantic appeal of your argument, the process of walking includes the risk of making outs, which varies from hitter to hitter. Walking is about taking pitches and not swinging. Taking pitches often results in outs. Moncada last year was called out on strikes substantially more (I believe it was in excess of 30 percent) than he walked.

You can blame bad calls by the umpire or the lack of robotic umpires (who I would have trusted less to get Wilbur Wood's knuckleball called correctly than the late great Ed Herrmann framing his pitches), but getting called out on strikes is something a hitter does because he decides not to swing. To quote Archie Bunker, deny your belly button, it's still there.

Simply looking at called strikeouts doesn't tell the entire story. Hitters who take hittable pitches early in the count looking to work a pitcher can put themselves in the hole and place themselves at a disadvantage in the count making it more difficult to accomplish a successful plate appearance. The emphasis on walks among many hitters is contributing to the rise in strikeouts, not only because hitters are being called out, but because hitters are working themselves into more two-strike counts.
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  #18  
Old 09-13-2019, 05:40 PM
A. Cavatica A. Cavatica is offline
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Originally Posted by TomBradley72 View Post
Fulmer and Collins looking like busts as 1st round draft choices (along with Burdi and Burger- due to injuries)
Fulmer: Bust.

Burdi and Burger: Injuries, high chance of bust.

Collins: Far too soon (56 PA, after a .951 OPS at Charlotte!) to label him. He's not going to be a catcher, but we all know the White Sox are blind to defensive shortcomings, so that should come as no surprise.
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  #19  
Old 09-13-2019, 05:43 PM
Mohoney Mohoney is offline
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Originally Posted by TDog View Post
My argument is deceptive because it takes into account reality. Despite the semantic appeal of your argument, the process of walking includes the risk of making outs, which varies from hitter to hitter. Walking is about taking pitches and not swinging. Taking pitches often results in outs. Moncada last year was called out on strikes substantially more (I believe it was in excess of 30 percent) than he walked.

You can blame bad calls by the umpire or the lack of robotic umpires (who I would have trusted less to get Wilbur Wood's knuckleball called correctly than the late great Ed Herrmann framing his pitches), but getting called out on strikes is something a hitter does because he decides not to swing. To quote Archie Bunker, deny your belly button, it's still there.

Simply looking at called strikeouts doesn't tell the entire story. Hitters who take hittable pitches early in the count looking to work a pitcher can put themselves in the hole and place themselves at a disadvantage in the count making it more difficult to accomplish a successful plate appearance. The emphasis on walks among many hitters is contributing to the rise in strikeouts, not only because hitters are being called out, but because hitters are working themselves into more two-strike counts.
Youíre not looking to take pitches you can hit. Youíre looking to take pitches you canít hit. Instead of trying to inside-out a well-located outside fastball and grounding out an overwhelming majority of the time, just take the pitch and hope itís called a ball. Instead of swinging through high fastballs or chasing tailing sliders, just take those pitches and hope theyíre called balls.

With nearly 600 pitchers on 40-man rosters, Iím in favor of forcing most guys, especially lower-end guys, to execute 3 or more good pitches per plate appearance. With home run totals through the roof, Iíll take the odds on many of them failing that test at critical junctures in the game. I donít want to let a guy off the hook by executing only 1 good pitch, with the lone exception being an elite hitter getting a 2-0 or 3-0 pitch he is looking for and trying to hit the ball onto the Dan Ryan.

If the guy aces me with 3 good pitches before he either throws 4 wide ones or leaves a mistake over the plate, then good on him. Iíll just lump it in with the 65% of failures I will inherently suffer just by virtue of putting on the uniform.

Are there lots of guys in the majors who have no business whatsoever taking full hacks with 2 strikes? Absolutely. However, the teams with realistic shots at winning a championship have maybe 2 of those guys in their starting lineups at a maximum, and the preference is to have none of them in the starting lineup at all.
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  #20  
Old 09-13-2019, 06:33 PM
TDog TDog is online now
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That doesn't change the fact that in five bunt-at bats in his MLB career, Moncada has hit two hits and his three outs have been productive, advancing runners and not resulting in outs on the bases.

Fans hate bunting, of course. Still, the Astros have bunted 39 times this year. The White Sox, with a much weaker lineup, have bunted 55 times. Garcia and Engel have 20 bunt-plate appearances for the Sox this year, skewing the bunt numbers upward for the Sox. Jay, like Engel, also has seven bunt attempts. If you take out those three as sort of a talent adjustment, the White Sox and Astros are comparable with their bunting.

You really don't know how many bunt were sacrifice attempts unless you saw each. Even then, a player may have been bunting on his own. Garcia and Engel certainly were bunting on their own at least some of the time. The Astros have 10 sacrifice this year, 8 by lineup regulars, one by a bench player and one by a pitcher. They have 13 bunt hits, Altuve has six bunt singles this year to go along with a sacrifice. I don't know if his manager ordered him to bunt at all this year. If not, Altuve saw what he needed to do to get on base. Excluding his sacrifice, as they do with batting averages, on base percentages, slugging percentages and that silly stat where you add the latter two together, Altuve is hitting .500 as a bunter but only .304 overall. He has 88 percent more strikeouts than walks, so it isn't like anyone could complain he should be waiting around to walk. In Altuve's MVP season, he had five bunt hits, so it isn't as if anyone is holding this bunting thing against him.

Winning teams, winning teams with strong offenses, even solid offensive players sometimes bunt. Sometimes bunting, or at least the ability to bunt, contributes to teams winning.
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  #21  
Old 09-13-2019, 07:14 PM
Mohoney Mohoney is offline
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Astros regulars Bregman, Correa, Springer, Gurriel, and Brantley all have no sacrifice attempts this year. Altuve has 3. The Astros donít ask marquee middle-order bats to bunt.
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  #22  
Old 09-13-2019, 09:07 PM
kittle42 kittle42 is offline
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Originally Posted by Mohoney View Post
Astros regulars Bregman, Correa, Springer, Gurriel, and Brantley all have no sacrifice attempts this year. Altuve has 3. The Astros donít ask marquee middle-order bats to bunt.
Because their manager isnít modern-baseball-stupid.
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  #23  
Old 09-13-2019, 09:30 PM
TDog TDog is online now
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What I know is that this year, Altuve has 13 bunt appearances and 1 sacrifice. Frankly, I don't know if his manager ordered him to bunt three times and he failed on two sacrifices or if every bunt was on his own. There is no official stat that separates bench-ordered sacrifice attempts and bunts at hitters' discretion. But Altuve was an MVP who actually earned it by playing for a winning team, and in his ninth major league season has 75 bunt plate appearances with 25 sacrifices and 26 hits. At least a few of his hits, no doubt, coming on attempted sacrifices.

Brantley has 3 bunt singles this year. I don't know how many were on sacrifice attempts, bench-ordered or not, or intended to beat the shift, just as I don't know if Moncada was bunting on his own against the Royals. Altogether, including Brantley, 7 position players and three pitchers have bunt appearances for the Astros this year.

The White Sox have 10 position players and 3 pitchers who have bunt appearances this year. Garcia has 13, just as Altuve does. If you want to look at Moncada being the equivalent to Brantley, Moncada has 2, 1 fewer than Brantley. McCann has 1 bunt appearance. Astros catchers have combined for 6.

The other White Sox who have bunt appearances this season are Sanchez with 10, Cordell with 8, Jay and Engel with 7 and Goins with 2, in addition to Alonso and Mendick each picking up a bunt hit in their only bunt appearances. Mendick picked up his first major league hit on a pretty good bunt in Cleveland. Circumstantial evidence indicates it was bench-ordered. There were runners on first and second and no one out in the top of the sixth in Cleveland. The Sox had a 3-1 lead in Mendick's first major league start. The bunt set the stage for an inning that ended with the Sox leading 6-1 en route to a 7-1 win. I have forgotten the circumstances to the Alonso bunt single, but I remember a couple of years ago for the A's he bunted for a hit to beat the shift in a game against the White Sox.

I also don't know how many of the White Sox non-pitchers who have bunted this year would be good enough to play on the Astros. Moncada, Mendick and McCann have only combined for 4 bunt appearances, and Brantley alone has three. Garcia and Altuve, not that they are on the same talent level, cancel each other out with 13 bunt appearances each. After that, you get into Sanchez-Engel-Cordell-Jay territory.

As I previously wrote, adjusting for talent, I don't see a significant difference in bunting between the White Sox and Astros.
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  #24  
Old 09-13-2019, 10:40 PM
longtimefan longtimefan is offline
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Let me clarify a point, the situation with Moncada bunting in the 5th inning of the KC game was not that he couldn't put the bat on the ball. It was his method. He had his top hand wrapped around the bat. In other words, his fingers where on the side of the bat where the pitch could have easily hurt him. You can end up with a broken finger that way.
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  #25  
Old 09-13-2019, 11:08 PM
TDog TDog is online now
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Originally Posted by longtimefan View Post
Let me clarify a point, the situation with Moncada bunting in the 5th inning of the KC game was not that he couldn't put the bat on the ball. It was his method. He had his top hand wrapped around the bat. In other words, his fingers where on the side of the bat where the pitch could have easily hurt him. You can end up with a broken finger that way.

That seems more a criticism of Moncada, an experienced bunter who was bunting successfully as a teenager in Cuba, than of White Sox management.
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  #26  
Old 09-14-2019, 01:56 AM
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Sign of the times: 15 of the 17 runs the Royals scored in the series were by way of the home run.
*yawn*
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  #27  
Old 09-14-2019, 03:37 AM
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voodoochile voodoochile is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mohoney View Post
Astros regulars Bregman, Correa, Springer, Gurriel, and Brantley all have no sacrifice attempts this year. Altuve has 3. The Astros donít ask marquee middle-order bats to bunt.
Just curious, but where do you find that stat? I mean I could understand them not having any SH but that doesn't mean they didn't try, just didn't succeed.
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  #28  
Old 09-14-2019, 08:11 AM
Mohoney Mohoney is offline
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Just curious, but where do you find that stat? I mean I could understand them not having any SH but that doesn't mean they didn't try, just didn't succeed.
Baseball Reference has it under ďsituational/miscellanious hitting.Ē
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  #29  
Old 09-14-2019, 12:35 PM
slavko slavko is offline
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Originally Posted by A. Cavatica View Post
Fulmer: Bust.

Burdi and Burger: Injuries, high chance of bust.

Collins: Far too soon (56 PA, after a .951 OPS at Charlotte!) to label him. He's not going to be a catcher, but we all know the White Sox are blind to defensive shortcomings, so that should come as no surprise.
I'd go bust on Burdi. A mistake from the College WS save he blew right after the draft. This is one horrible record and begs the question of why Hahn is still employed here.
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  #30  
Old 09-14-2019, 01:47 PM
TDog TDog is online now
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Baseball Reference's situational/miscellaneous hitting is incomplete and certainly does not reflect bench-ordered sacrifices because it infers intent which is not confirmed by the manager. Engel, for one, will bunt with a runner at first and no one out if the infields are set at double play depth. It is not uncommon for a hitter to bunt on his own with a runner on second and nobody out in a close game because his fundamental job is to move the runner over. Ground balls to second used to be routine, but bunts don't affect a player's stats. Obviously, it isn't that frequent anymore if the difference in bunt plate appearances between the White Sox and Astros nearly 150 games into the season is only 14.

Because the question seemed to be about bunting being something Moncada shouldn't waste his time practicing (it is extremely common for hitters to bunt in pregame batting practice), I took the Baseball Reference bunt appearances that show that Brantley has bunted more this year than Moncada.
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