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  #61  
Old 04-29-2019, 10:50 AM
Zisk77 Zisk77 is offline
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Originally Posted by Grzegorz View Post
First off no one said the kid is a bust.

The question is what he was doing down on the farm. Why was he not learning how to play the OF, to the best of his ability, down there?

To have him learn how to play OF at the major league level introduces all sorts of risks to the player and his teammates.

To believe learning how to play the OF is acceptable at the major league level is wrong.
I didn't Say Eloy was a bust or that anybody has said that. I said people clained Moncada was a bust...we had a bust watch thread if you recall.
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  #62  
Old 04-29-2019, 11:59 AM
Harry Chappas Harry Chappas is offline
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Originally Posted by LITTLE NELL View Post
Very good point but that's been the trouble with the Sox for a long time, seems like coaches at the major and minor league level leave a lot to be desired.
I don't buy this argument. Coaches almost always get the blame when a player struggles. Why don't those same coaches get any credit for players that succeed? For example, why don't they get credit for Adam Engel and his sound defense? Or Moncada's play at 3rd?

Some players just don't have the natural instincts and God-given ability to be good or even passable fielders. Same is true of hitting. Jimenez appears to lack the quickness (different than speed) to cover for his poor routes and bad jumps. I suspect that no amount of coaching is going to overcome the fact that he's 6' 4" and runs like he's wearing cement shoes. Accountability also comes into play. Some players work there ass off to improve. Perhaps Jimenez hasn't made improving his fielding a priority?

With more experience and hard work on his part, I think he could play passable LF. It's a little early to pull the plug although it's something to consider if he's going to continue to injure himself.
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  #63  
Old 04-29-2019, 12:18 PM
blandman blandman is offline
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Originally Posted by voodoochile View Post
I would like you to explain exactly how you came to this conclusion...
His body is his biggest issue. He'd be a different player if he got smaller and faster. He might get better over the years instinctually, but the progress he makes there will be countered by his physically mobility taking an inevitable step back as he ages. This was my biggest issue with the Sox holding him back. They wanted him to "improve" his defense, but the amount he will improve isn't necessary to an acceptable level. You either live with bad defense in exchange for a bat, or you move his position.

He can play first base with his skillset, and might even be able to stick. We have very little corner IF depth in our system, and tons of possible OF options. The move makes a ton of sense.
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  #64  
Old 04-29-2019, 12:22 PM
rdivaldi rdivaldi is offline
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Originally Posted by TomBradley72 View Post
I think it's more likely that Jimenez is just a very mediocre defensive player vs. this being "negligence" on the part of the White Sox.
True. It would also be much more the Cubs "negligence" as Eloy was part of their farm system from 2014 until 2017. But then again, that wouldn't fit the "White Sox don't teach fundamentals" narrative/nonsense....
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  #65  
Old 04-29-2019, 12:40 PM
TomBradley72 TomBradley72 is offline
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Originally Posted by Harry Chappas View Post
I don't buy this argument. Coaches almost always get the blame when a player struggles. Why don't those same coaches get any credit for players that succeed? For example, why don't they get credit for Adam Engel and his sound defense? Or Moncada's play at 3rd?

Some players just don't have the natural instincts and God-given ability to be good or even passable fielders. Same is true of hitting. Jimenez appears to lack the quickness (different than speed) to cover for his poor routes and bad jumps. I suspect that no amount of coaching is going to overcome the fact that he's 6' 4" and runs like he's wearing cement shoes. Accountability also comes into play. Some players work there ass off to improve. Perhaps Jimenez hasn't made improving his fielding a priority?

With more experience and hard work on his part, I think he could play passable LF. It's a little early to pull the plug although it's something to consider if he's going to continue to injure himself.
The Sox have done a good job with developing extremely raw, young players like Anderson and Moncada- the "we can't develop talent" narrative is not holding up.
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  #66  
Old 04-29-2019, 01:20 PM
ricker182 ricker182 is offline
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Originally Posted by TomBradley72 View Post
The Sox have done a good job with developing extremely raw, young players like Anderson and Moncada- the "we can't develop talent" narrative is not holding up.
We didn't develop Moncada. He wasn't in our minor system very long and it's too early to judge him still.

I'll give the Sox credit for TA.
Although I'll wait for a few years of sustained success from him.

Always been high on TA. I always like great all around athletes.

Regardless, both these guys look like they have the tools to be special.

Can't wait to see who we trade them for in a couple years during our rebuild of the rebuild.
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  #67  
Old 04-29-2019, 01:46 PM
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Originally Posted by ricker182 View Post
We didn't develop Moncada. He wasn't in our minor system very long and it's too early to judge him still.

I'll give the Sox credit for TA.
Although I'll wait for a few years of sustained success from him.

Always been high on TA. I always like great all around athletes.

Regardless, both these guys look like they have the tools to be special.

Can't wait to see who we trade them for in a couple years during our rebuild of the rebuild.
Sox moved Moncada to 3B and worked with him this spring and he's been very acceptable at that position so far. Sox obviously handled his hitting well also, because he's not the same guy he was last year.
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  #68  
Old 04-29-2019, 02:11 PM
blandman blandman is offline
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Originally Posted by voodoochile View Post
Sox moved Moncada to 3B and worked with him this spring and he's been very acceptable at that position so far. Sox obviously handled his hitting well also, because he's not the same guy he was last year.
Yeah I don't get the argument that the Sox didn't develop Moncada. He learned to hit major league pitching and field a position better on their watch. They get all the credit for that, because it was very possible he wouldn't make those adjustments in a different situation.
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  #69  
Old 04-29-2019, 02:15 PM
blandman blandman is offline
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Originally Posted by rdivaldi View Post
True. It would also be much more the Cubs "negligence" as Eloy was part of their farm system from 2014 until 2017. But then again, that wouldn't fit the "White Sox don't teach fundamentals" narrative/nonsense....
Given the Cubs also "developed" Kyle Schwarber (who moved from catcher to another position he couldn't handle on their watch), it's pretty clear it was their system that didn't help in that area. Granted, I don't think either player should be in the outfield anyway, but they obviously did them no favors. Both guys are pretty obvious 1B/DH's.
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  #70  
Old 04-29-2019, 03:23 PM
TDog TDog is online now
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Originally Posted by voodoochile View Post
Sox moved Moncada to 3B and worked with him this spring and he's been very acceptable at that position so far. Sox obviously handled his hitting well also, because he's not the same guy he was last year.

Moncada is a much better third baseman now than he was when he was in the Red Sox system. He has come out this year as a better hitter as well. Hopefully, he'll continue to place a high priority on contact, although his strikeouts are still higher than they should be even with the dramatic improvement in that area, and taking walks only when the pitcher is pitching around him. I don't know how anyone could say he hasn't developed while with the White Sox.


For that matter, Giolito and Lopez are better pitchers now than when they were in the Nationals system. If the White Sox are going to get the most out of Jimenez, they need to work to develop him at a position.
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  #71  
Old 04-29-2019, 04:14 PM
hdog1017 hdog1017 is offline
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I think when the Sox are good, Eloy is a DH.
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  #72  
Old 04-29-2019, 04:24 PM
Flight #24 Flight #24 is offline
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His body is his biggest issue. He'd be a different player if he got smaller and faster. He might get better over the years instinctually, but the progress he makes there will be countered by his physically mobility taking an inevitable step back as he ages.
He's 22, not 32. His physical mobility isn't degrading as he goes from 22 to 23 to 24. Yes, inevitably it will, but if you assume he can improve on D with work, it's far far more likely that he will do that long before the long arm of time takes its toll.

It may well be good for him to eventually be a 1B/DH. But I think it's completely worthwhile at this age and in this season to push him to see how/whether he can become serviceable in the OF. I do agree that he needs to be told/taught not to "go for it" in terms of diving or crashing into the wall. Make a good effort but don't go for broke.
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  #73  
Old 04-29-2019, 05:01 PM
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The assumption underlying much of the talk of moving Eloy to DH or 1B is that Abreu won't be re-signed after this season. For better or worse, I think Jose will be back on a two year deal. It would be in everyone's best interest if Eloy can be coached up to become a serviceable left-fielder rather than assuming his future is at first or DH'ing.
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  #74  
Old 04-29-2019, 05:25 PM
blandman blandman is offline
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Originally Posted by Flight #24 View Post
He's 22, not 32. His physical mobility isn't degrading as he goes from 22 to 23 to 24. Yes, inevitably it will, but if you assume he can improve on D with work, it's far far more likely that he will do that long before the long arm of time takes its toll.

It may well be good for him to eventually be a 1B/DH. But I think it's completely worthwhile at this age and in this season to push him to see how/whether he can become serviceable in the OF. I do agree that he needs to be told/taught not to "go for it" in terms of diving or crashing into the wall. Make a good effort but don't go for broke.
He's not going to get better instincts over night coming from where he is. You're talking about YEARS of both terrible body for outfield coupled with poor reads and range skills before he gets the latter sorted. Then what? A few serviceable but below average seasons of OF defense before he degrades? All while a plethora of OF propsects who are better defenders are looking for a shot.

With two first basemen on the roster, it makes sense for Eloy to take lumps in LF this year. But it makes way more sense to fill the inevitable 1B hole with him, giving him the offseason to work on the fundamentals of the position switch. There are a lot of possible OF options down the line, and really only one maybe at 1B that is probably never going to be good enough to reach the bigs. But if he is, then one of them can DH.
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  #75  
Old 04-29-2019, 08:58 PM
Grzegorz Grzegorz is offline
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Originally Posted by blandman View Post
With two first basemen on the roster, it makes sense for Eloy to take lumps in LF this year. But it makes way more sense to fill the inevitable 1B hole with him, giving him the offseason to work on the fundamentals of the position switch.
Right now he's nothing more than a DH. It is crazy to think that he should get on the job training in the majors on how to play LF. With him in the field he'll either hurt himself or others. The dismissal of the skill set required to play !B continues to amaze me.
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Last edited by Grzegorz; 04-29-2019 at 09:27 PM. Reason: if he works at it he can succeed.
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