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  #31  
Old 09-09-2019, 03:03 PM
guillensdisciple guillensdisciple is offline
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Originally Posted by GoSox2K3 View Post
What's so "hilarious" about being hopeful about all the talent making its way through the system? I must be missing something because I don't see anyone saying anything about this being "guaranteed" as you suggest.

I didn't realize fans weren't allowed to dream about a future lineup that features TA, Moncada, Jimenez, Robert, Madrigal, and Vaughn just because nothing is guaranteed in life and we don't have a crystal ball to ensure future performance.

May as well shut down all discussion on this board about the future of this ball club since it's not 100% certain to be successful.
"Our future is so bright we have to wear shades" is the title of this thread. That sounds like a whole lot of assuming, and very little grounding in reality.
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  #32  
Old 09-09-2019, 03:11 PM
I_Liked_Manuel I_Liked_Manuel is offline
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Originally Posted by Chez View Post
Have you been watching Giolito's starts? He's pitched like a legit #1. Other than Verlander and Cole, he's out pitched every other starter in the damn league.
If he's a #1 on the sox' playoff staff, this rebuild will result in being the 2000s Twins who won divisions and didn't make it out of a divisional series. I'm just being realistic here, the Sox need to spend some major money on starting pitching this offseason and just accept that in 4 or 5 years, you get to watch an overpaid pitcher not get out of the 3rd inning like Cubs fans are watching with Lester right now
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  #33  
Old 09-09-2019, 03:13 PM
WhiteSox5187 WhiteSox5187 is offline
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Originally Posted by Hitmen77 View Post
I don't think Semien, Gillaspie, or Micah Johnson were even close to the talent level of Anderson, Moncada, and Madrigal. Moncada was the #1 prospect in all of baseball. Madrigal is premier talent, too. Were any of those prospects from 2014 ever ranked as high?

Robert is one of the top rated prospects in baseball and MiLB player of the year. Eloy was one of the top prospects last year. Was Avi ever ranked nearly as high as either of those guys?

In 2014, Alexei was 32 years old and it was the first time in 3 seasons (and the final time) he had an OPS above .700.
The core in 2014 was Sale, Quintana, Abreu and Eaton, I think you could also argue that Avi was a part of that. The idea was that they were the four guys you built around. Semien, Gillaspie, etc. were cost-effective guys who could give you adequate levels of production to supplement that core. They were NOT part of the core itself.

The core this time around is Giolito, Moncada, Jimenez and Anderson at the major league level and then you have Robert and Madrigal in the minors.

If everyone of those guys click, then we're all set. But if there are set backs, regressions or injuries, well, then we have some issues and the question that I think has yet to be answered is can the Sox go outside of the organization and successfully augment the talent that they have? In 2014-2016 they couldn't, now the same guys are going to try again and I am at least a bit dubious as to whether or not they can be successful this time but I will say in Hahn's defense, I think that ownership might put restrictions on the front office that would make it hard for anyone to successfully augment the talent on this roster.
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  #34  
Old 09-09-2019, 03:26 PM
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Originally Posted by WhiteSox5187 View Post
The core in 2014 was Sale, Quintana, Abreu and Eaton, I think you could also argue that Avi was a part of that. The idea was that they were the four guys you built around. Semien, Gillaspie, etc. were cost-effective guys who could give you adequate levels of production to supplement that core. They were NOT part of the core itself.

The core this time around is Giolito, Moncada, Jimenez and Anderson at the major league level and then you have Robert and Madrigal in the minors.

If everyone of those guys click, then we're all set. But if there are set backs, regressions or injuries, well, then we have some issues and the question that I think has yet to be answered is can the Sox go outside of the organization and successfully augment the talent that they have? In 2014-2016 they couldn't, now the same guys are going to try again and I am at least a bit dubious as to whether or not they can be successful this time but I will say in Hahn's defense, I think that ownership might put restrictions on the front office that would make it hard for anyone to successfully augment the talent on this roster.
4 guys is not a core. It's the start to a core. You need 5 starting pitchers. The Sox had 2. You need 9 bats. You listed 3.

The current team is much deeper in terms of young cost controlled talent with high upside. Much MUCH deeper.
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  #35  
Old 09-09-2019, 03:52 PM
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Originally Posted by guillensdisciple View Post
"Our future is so bright we have to wear shades" is the title of this thread. That sounds like a whole lot of assuming, and very little grounding in reality.
It's the title of a song title from the 1980's by Timbuk 3.
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  #36  
Old 09-09-2019, 04:35 PM
Mohoney Mohoney is offline
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Originally Posted by I_Liked_Manuel View Post
If he's a #1 on the sox' playoff staff, this rebuild will result in being the 2000s Twins who won divisions and didn't make it out of a divisional series. I'm just being realistic here, the Sox need to spend some major money on starting pitching this offseason and just accept that in 4 or 5 years, you get to watch an overpaid pitcher not get out of the 3rd inning like Cubs fans are watching with Lester right now
This is a perfect distillation of it all. It always was going to come down to this.

Look at the teams that emerged from prolonged tanks and ended up winning a championship. They all imported top-notch pitching at that $25+ million AAV to stabilize the front--not the back--of the rotation. Signing or trading for $8 million AAV salary dumps to "eat innings" was not even under consideration. Those teams went for the jugular. Sure, they identified projectable arms who they thought they could fix and went out and got them, but they all paid full freight for a bona fide ace to lead the charge.

Cole is a Boras client, which takes him out of consideration. That leaves Bumgarner as the next-best option. Going any farther down the list than MadBum in free agency is just not worth it. At first, I didn't even want MadBum; I thought it would be too risky. However, at this point, I think some of the durability concerns have been laid to rest. Plus, if "intangibles" are really that important to this front office, how can you do better than a guy with 3 World Series rings to lead your young rotation hopefuls?
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  #37  
Old 09-09-2019, 05:01 PM
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Originally Posted by guillensdisciple View Post
"Our future is so bright we have to wear shades" is the title of this thread. That sounds like a whole lot of assuming, and very little grounding in reality.
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Originally Posted by Chez View Post
It's the title of a song title from the 1980's by Timbuk 3.
For your listening pleasure:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8qrriKcwvlY
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  #38  
Old 09-09-2019, 05:10 PM
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  #39  
Old 09-09-2019, 05:23 PM
Flight #24 Flight #24 is offline
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Originally Posted by guillensdisciple View Post
Not really.

Your ideal place is the Red Sox, Yankees, Dodgers, etc.

But just because we're doing a rebuild, it doesn't mean that we are on a proper path. The Sox are not doing the thing that all of these successful rebuilds do, have a top payroll to finish it.

The Cubs and Astros both did that. If we do not start competing on a financial level, our only hope will be going on a Royals one or two year run while the players hit their peaks. It took the Royals two decades of failed rebuilding to pull that off.

Otherwise, we could just be the Pirates. A perrenial fring playoff contender without susbtantial results.
Yes, and the Astros a couple years ago were in the same position as the Sox - with a payroll in the $80M range. As were the Cubs a couple years before their title.

You're arguing that the rebuild is not on the "proper path" because the Sox are doing something that most teams don't do at this stage in their rebuilds. Again - judging a rebuild on something that wasn't supposed to have happened yet seems silly. And similarly judging a rebuild because it's not complete seems equally so. Completely fair to say there's work to be done - players have to develop, the team has to spend (and identify the right guys to spend it on), but that's why the rebuild isn't done yet.
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  #40  
Old 09-09-2019, 05:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Mohoney View Post
This is a perfect distillation of it all. It always was going to come down to this.

Look at the teams that emerged from prolonged tanks and ended up winning a championship. They all imported top-notch pitching at that $25+ million AAV to stabilize the front--not the back--of the rotation. Signing or trading for $8 million AAV salary dumps to "eat innings" was not even under consideration. Those teams went for the jugular. Sure, they identified projectable arms who they thought they could fix and went out and got them, but they all paid full freight for a bona fide ace to lead the charge.

Cole is a Boras client, which takes him out of consideration. That leaves Bumgarner as the next-best option. Going any farther down the list than MadBum in free agency is just not worth it. At first, I didn't even want MadBum; I thought it would be too risky. However, at this point, I think some of the durability concerns have been laid to rest. Plus, if "intangibles" are really that important to this front office, how can you do better than a guy with 3 World Series rings to lead your young rotation hopefuls?
The White Sox might get Bumgarner if, along with the money, they promise him he could DH a minimum number of games. He wants to participate in the home run derby, and that might get him there. And maybe he wouldn't be any worse than Adam Dunn was.

Overpaying a player well into the future to get one or two great years among a few good years and more struggling years is more likely to hurt your team than help it. Following the template of the Cubs, a team that hasn't seemed on the rise for awhile after so much went right for them (starting with the Astros not drafting Bryant in favor of a pitcher now out of baseball without ever getting to the majors) to win an extra-inning World Series Game 7, is more likely a losing proposition. This White Sox team has enough questions with its starting rotation and a thin bullpen heading into 2020, much more than one signing can answer, that overcommitting to a veteran whose elite window may not line up with prospect development is the sort of gamble that could do more to inspire another rebuild than to bring the team a championship.
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  #41  
Old 09-09-2019, 05:48 PM
I_Liked_Manuel I_Liked_Manuel is offline
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Originally Posted by TDog View Post
The White Sox might get Bumgarner if, along with the money, they promise him he could DH a minimum number of games. He wants to participate in the home run derby, and that might get him there. And maybe he wouldn't be any worse than Adam Dunn was.

Overpaying a player well into the future to get one or two great years among a few good years and more struggling years is more likely to hurt your team than help it. Following the template of the Cubs, a team that hasn't seemed on the rise for awhile after so much went right for them (starting with the Astros not drafting Bryant in favor of a pitcher now out of baseball without ever getting to the majors) to win an extra-inning World Series Game 7, is more likely a losing proposition. This White Sox team has enough questions with its starting rotation and a thin bullpen heading into 2020, much more than one signing can answer, that overcommitting to a veteran whose elite window may not line up with prospect development is the sort of gamble that could do more to inspire another rebuild than to bring the team a championship.
The point here is that if the sox don't do that a couple times, they don't win a championship or even a series. Without Lester and Hayward, the Cubs would be looking down the barrel of having not won a championship in the Bryant/Baez/Rizzo window. I don't think any of us would want to see that with Moncada/Anderson/Jimenez/Robert
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  #42  
Old 09-09-2019, 06:13 PM
Tragg Tragg is offline
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Originally Posted by WhiteSox5187 View Post
The core in 2014 was Sale, Quintana, Abreu and Eaton, I think you could also argue that Avi was a part of that. The idea was that they were the four guys you built around. Semien, Gillaspie, etc. were cost-effective guys who could give you adequate levels of production to supplement that core. They were NOT part of the core itself.

The core this time around is Giolito, Moncada, Jimenez and Anderson at the major league level and then you have Robert and Madrigal in the minors.

If everyone of those guys click, then we're all set. But if there are set backs, regressions or injuries, well, then we have some issues and the question that I think has yet to be answered is can the Sox go outside of the organization and successfully augment the talent that they have? In 2014-2016 they couldn't, now the same guys are going to try again and I am at least a bit dubious as to whether or not they can be successful this time but I will say in Hahn's defense, I think that ownership might put restrictions on the front office that would make it hard for anyone to successfully augment the talent on this roster.
One of the problems that they had is that you need to augment within your organization as well. Back then they foolishly traded or let go some of the second tier pieces and prospects; but even at that they didn't develop enough. You should be able to find 1 or 2 dependable position players and a few pitchers (bullpen) from your second tier prospects. After 3 years of auditions of Leury, Tilson, Cordell, Yolmer, several guys whose names escape me from year 1, the Sox have basically zilch. On the pitching side, they have Fry and Bummer. That's it. The drafts have been empty. They'be gotten nothing from their 2nd tier trades either. You can't fill 10 spots with free agents. And, of course, their talent evaluation of the 2nd tier veterans they shop for has been awful....it's so bad that it's hard to believe that they actually scout these players or use even the most basic analytics.

Another problem is that they made these trades of good, but unranked, prospects for good but not great veterans on 1 or 2 year contracts. You get the player generally for a lower salary than if he was a FA. Quality organizations are on the other side of those asset-depleting trades.
The Sox should be mostly about pitching.
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  #43  
Old 09-09-2019, 06:15 PM
TDog TDog is online now
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Originally Posted by I_Liked_Manuel View Post
The point here is that if the sox don't do that a couple times, they don't win a championship or even a series. Without Lester and Hayward, the Cubs would be looking down the barrel of having not won a championship in the Bryant/Baez/Rizzo window. I don't think any of us would want to see that with Moncada/Anderson/Jimenez/Robert

Hayward really didn't help the Cubs, and if the Giants had any sort of a bullpen in 2016, the Cubs wouldn't have won even with their signings. With all the Tigers commitment to Miguel Cabrera, they never won a World Series game. They're still paying Cabrera, and they may be the worst team in baseball.

The White Sox don't appear to be anywhere close to having the pitching to be ready to contend. By the time the Sox are ready to contend, this offseason's big investment may no longer be the difference maker.
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  #44  
Old 09-09-2019, 06:34 PM
TomBradley72 TomBradley72 is offline
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I more worried about this brain trust placing the right bets on the FAs or veterans we need to trade for than i am about the prospects turning out.

Dunn, Keppinger, Laroche, Samardzija, etc- not much of a track record.
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  #45  
Old 09-09-2019, 07:07 PM
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It is absolutely astounding that when I talk to non-WSI die-hard life-long White Sox fans they cannot contain their excitement for 2020 and beyond. It is almost as if this place is occupied by jealous Cub fans who know their window is closing and want to piss on our parade as much as possible.

In my work, I come into contact with many Sox fans. I always start the conversation by merely acknowledging we're Sox fans and then the other person always goes off on how great things are looking and how 2020 and beyond will be one extremely enjoyable decade to be a Sox fan.
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