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  #181  
Old 10-02-2019, 10:25 PM
Tragg Tragg is offline
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Originally Posted by Mohoney View Post

Once your rebuild enters the phase where you expect to contend, your highly-ranked farmhands are more valuable as trade chips to put your team over the top than they are as replenishment for departed free agents years down the road.
Once a team actually IS contending, then you can make that argument.
The Sox won 72 games. They are in a similar competitive position that they were after the 2014 season.....and that's when the clownshow commenced. Let's not repeat it.
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  #182  
Old 10-03-2019, 05:01 AM
Grzegorz Grzegorz is offline
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Originally Posted by Tragg View Post
Once a team actually IS contending, then you can make that argument.
The Sox won 72 games. They are in a similar competitive position that they were after the 2014 season.....and that's when the clownshow commenced. Let's not repeat it.
They are not in the same competitive position going into 2020 as they were going into 2015 unless every other opponent is bound by those same constraints.

In other words, each season is unique.
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  #183  
Old 10-03-2019, 08:31 AM
kittle42 kittle42 is offline
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Originally Posted by ChiSoxNationPres View Post
Yep, can't be a good trade unless you won a WS because of it
That is not what anyone said, and you know that.

Had you said “Yep, a trade cant be bad if it directly contributed to a team winning a World Series,” you may have had a better basis for your eyeroll, because I believe this is what is actually being argued, in a condensed way of saying.
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  #184  
Old 10-03-2019, 09:08 AM
ChiSoxNationPres ChiSoxNationPres is offline
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Originally Posted by kittle42 View Post
That is not what anyone said, and you know that.

Had you said “Yep, a trade cant be bad if it directly contributed to a team winning a World Series,” you may have had a better basis for your eyeroll, because I believe this is what is actually being argued, in a condensed way of saying.
Either way it's ignoring a clearly similar trade that the top 20 prospect yielded a MUCH greater return.
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  #185  
Old 10-03-2019, 09:11 AM
Mohoney Mohoney is offline
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Originally Posted by ChiSoxNationPres View Post
Either way it's ignoring a clearly similar trade that the top 20 prospect yielded a MUCH greater return.
In a completely different trade market, 2 years later, with a top-tier prospect at the most scarce position in the game.
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  #186  
Old 10-03-2019, 09:40 AM
ChiSoxNationPres ChiSoxNationPres is offline
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Originally Posted by Mohoney View Post
In a completely different trade market, 2 years later, with a top-tier prospect at the most scarce position in the game.
Come on, 2 years is really not that much later. People in the industry are already comparing Gerrit Cole's future contract to David Price's he got 4 years ago. Trade value on players and similar players aren't thrown out the window every 2 years and the industry starts from scratch then.

It was (and is) also widely talked about how Meijia likely won't stick at catcher. To boot, Torres being able to play SS, 3b, 2b is easily as valuable as a poor defensive catcher. Regardless, the prospect rankings reflect position value as well when they are evaluated and ranked.
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  #187  
Old 10-03-2019, 11:19 AM
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DumpJerry DumpJerry is offline
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Well, heads did roll. Because of the lack of consistent offensive production outside of Anderson, Moncada, McGann, Eloy and Abreu, Steverson and his assistant are now unemployed.
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  #188  
Old 10-03-2019, 11:28 AM
kittle42 kittle42 is offline
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Originally Posted by ChiSoxNationPres View Post
Come on, 2 years is really not that much later.
That is just patently false, especially in the recent past, with the values of certain positions substantially increasing or decreasing and the approach teams have taken to older FAs vs. younger talent.
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  #189  
Old 10-03-2019, 11:47 AM
A. Cavatica A. Cavatica is offline
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Originally Posted by DumpJerry View Post
Well, heads did roll. Because of the lack of consistent offensive production outside of Anderson, Moncada, McGann, Eloy and Abreu, Steverson and his assistant are now unemployed.
This was not especially surprising (given that the rumor preceded the firing) but it doesn't quite add up. I'm not sure if it's scapegoating or if there were disagreements behind the scenes, but Steverson wasn't worse at his job than Cooper, or Renteria, or Hahn.

If you choose to employ bad hitters, your team hitting will suffer. And outside of the five who had good years, we had a lot of bad hitters, and some really atrocious hitters.

Likewise, if you choose to employ bad pitchers, your team pitching performance will suffer. Was Coop better at fixing the bad pitchers than Steverson was at fixing the bad hitters? It didn't seem so.

If you build a team that has bad hitters and bad pitchers, and your manager chooses to play the worse ones over the better ones, well then heaven help you.

I did expect to see some heads roll at the end of the season, but I thought there would be a wave of players being released. I want to see them move on from Covey and Fulmer and Palka. I knew they weren't going to fire Hahn or Renteria or Coop, but I'm not persuaded that firing Steverson will fix anything.
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  #190  
Old 10-03-2019, 11:49 AM
ChiSoxNationPres ChiSoxNationPres is offline
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Originally Posted by kittle42 View Post
That is just patently false, especially in the recent past, with the values of certain positions substantially increasing or decreasing and the approach teams have taken to older FAs vs. younger talent.
The older FAs vs younger talent switch started 2 years ago.

Regardless, the value of a top 20 prospect, forget about older players, has not changed in the last 2 years. And the substantial difference between getting 2 months of an elite closer vs 3 years and 2 months of and elite closer with a controlled quality reliever added to it is absolutely huge. Thus an overpay.
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  #191  
Old 10-03-2019, 12:00 PM
Mohoney Mohoney is offline
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Originally Posted by ChiSoxNationPres View Post
Come on, 2 years is really not that much later. People in the industry are already comparing Gerrit Cole's future contract to David Price's he got 4 years ago. Trade value on players and similar players aren't thrown out the window every 2 years and the industry starts from scratch then.

It was (and is) also widely talked about how Meijia likely won't stick at catcher. To boot, Torres being able to play SS, 3b, 2b is easily as valuable as a poor defensive catcher. Regardless, the prospect rankings reflect position value as well when they are evaluated and ranked.
The amount (and quality) of young talent that teams have been willing to give up in trades, and the dollar amount on big contracts, have precipitously declined in the past 5 years.
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  #192  
Old 10-03-2019, 12:29 PM
ChiSoxNationPres ChiSoxNationPres is offline
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Originally Posted by Mohoney View Post
The amount (and quality) of young talent that teams have been willing to give up in trades, and the dollar amount on big contracts, have precipitously declined in the past 5 years.
Well yes, I know that. Doesn't change anything from fact that the 2 trades in question, 2 years apart, yielded vastly different returns.

Anyways, I didn't think the Chapman trade was not a smart deal, some did. Moving on...

Although very happy that the Cubs don't have Gleyber Torres!
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  #193  
Old 10-03-2019, 01:52 PM
kittle42 kittle42 is offline
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Originally Posted by ChiSoxNationPres View Post
The older FAs vs younger talent switch started 2 years ago.

Regardless, the value of a top 20 prospect, forget about older players, has not changed in the last 2 years. And the substantial difference between getting 2 months of an elite closer vs 3 years and 2 months of and elite closer with a controlled quality reliever added to it is absolutely huge. Thus an overpay.
I never said it wasn’t an overpay, either. Just that the trade was worth it since it led to exactly what they wanted when they made the trade.
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  #194  
Old 10-03-2019, 05:51 PM
Mohoney Mohoney is offline
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Originally Posted by Tragg View Post
The Astros just won 107 games in their 5th year.
The Cardinals have 10 winning seasons in a row and 19/20.
One method that has proven to be a consistent failure is trading your prospects for veterans.
One method that is a proven success is identifying, evaluating and developing young talent. And while the Sox may not be top shelf in this regard, they are at their absolute worst when evaluating and trading for veterans.
The Cardinals trade prospects for veterans all the time. The three-headed monster at the front of Houston’s rotation was assembled completely by trading prospects for veterans. Unless you plan on spending about $250 million, or about $10 million per player on average, you’re not going to get enough of the premier talent you need to hang with Houston, the Yankees, and the Dodgers.

And before anyone says “Look at what the Twins did!”, get back to me after they get trounced in the Division Series.
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