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  #46  
Old 09-30-2019, 09:36 PM
GoSox2K3 GoSox2K3 is offline
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Originally Posted by WhiteSox5187 View Post
Jim Margalus had a great post this morning about the season and where things stand with the rebuild (the positives, the negatives and why some people are anxious). https://www.soxmachine.com/2019/09/3...ier-heres-how/
Too be honest, I think he's being overly negative (as usual). Listing to him, you'd think the rebuild barely broke even this year with some good stuff and some equally bad stuff. I don't agree with that at all.

If I would have predicted last year that Giolito, Yoan, and Anderson plus Robert and Madrigal all will have wildly successful seasons this year - specifically Lucas would be an all-star, Moncada would slash .315/.365/.548 while playing superb defense at 3rd, Anderson would win the batting title, Abreu would lead the A.L. in RBIs, that Robert and Madrigal would zoom up to AAA and look pretty darn good at that level, you guys probably would have thought I was completely stoned. Not to mention that McCann would turn out to be a great pickup and Collins would start to look like he might be able to be a high OPS guy after all. Our 2019 draft looked pretty good too with Vaughn and a number of promising prep players.

Cease made it to the majors and still looks very promising despite his struggles. Eloy looks like he could hit 40 or 50 HRs next year. There were some downsides among rebuild pieces. Lopez regressed. In the minors, Hansen is basically a non-prospect now. But I don't see the progress and the regression to be anywhere close to even.

But Margalus seems to think we were barely treading water this year and concludes that "the course is still leading the White Sox into the same same territory that got them in trouble the last time." He says "they're going to have to add from the outside". Right, because the Cubs, Astros, or any other successful team didn't add anyone from the outside to put them over the top. Same tired old dark cloud stuff about how terrible this FO is and will likely lead us to ultimate failure. I don't find that very insightful at all and that is why I gave up on reading Sox Machine a while ago.

But hey, everyone is entitled to their opinion on how this is playing out and will play out. He might be right on the money and this time next year he can tell us "I told you so" if this team crashes and burns. I just choose not to wallow in so much perpetual negativity when there were so many positives this year.
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  #47  
Old 09-30-2019, 09:41 PM
GoSox2K3 GoSox2K3 is offline
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Originally Posted by Mohoney View Post
The .500-ish team flirting with Wild Card contention is acceptable, if this is viewed as a 2-year process instead of a 1-year process. It’s perfectly reasonable to do the free agency shopping over 2 offseasons instead of 1, as long as the TOR starter is this year’s headliner. Then go all-out for Betts next year, hopefully with a .500-ish season and a bunch of budding young talent as an extra selling point.

I like Mookie better than Machado or Harper anyway. He’s an easy guy to root for, like a lot of the other guys on our team.
I agree with the idea that this could be spread out over two years. We definitely need one TOR starter this year, but at this point next year, we should have a better idea of what we've got with Giolito, Cease, Kopech, and Lopez...and perhaps even Dunning, Flores, and Stiever to decide whether we need to go after another quality starter.
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  #48  
Old 09-30-2019, 10:18 PM
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Originally Posted by GoSox2K3 View Post
Too be honest, I think he's being overly negative (as usual). Listing to him, you'd think the rebuild barely broke even this year with some good stuff and some equally bad stuff. I don't agree with that at all.

If I would have predicted last year that Giolito, Yoan, and Anderson plus Robert and Madrigal all will have wildly successful seasons this year - specifically Lucas would be an all-star, Moncada would slash .315/.365/.548 while playing superb defense at 3rd, Anderson would win the batting title, Abreu would lead the A.L. in RBIs, that Robert and Madrigal would zoom up to AAA and look pretty darn good at that level, you guys probably would have thought I was completely stoned. Not to mention that McCann would turn out to be a great pickup and Collins would start to look like he might be able to be a high OPS guy after all. Our 2019 draft looked pretty good too with Vaughn and a number of promising prep players.

Cease made it to the majors and still looks very promising despite his struggles. Eloy looks like he could hit 40 or 50 HRs next year. There were some downsides among rebuild pieces. Lopez regressed. In the minors, Hansen is basically a non-prospect now. But I don't see the progress and the regression to be anywhere close to even.

But Margalus seems to think we were barely treading water this year and concludes that "the course is still leading the White Sox into the same same territory that got them in trouble the last time." He says "they're going to have to add from the outside". Right, because the Cubs, Astros, or any other successful team didn't add anyone from the outside to put them over the top. Same tired old dark cloud stuff about how terrible this FO is and will likely lead us to ultimate failure. I don't find that very insightful at all and that is why I gave up on reading Sox Machine a while ago.

But hey, everyone is entitled to their opinion on how this is playing out and will play out. He might be right on the money and this time next year he can tell us "I told you so" if this team crashes and burns. I just choose not to wallow in so much perpetual negativity when there were so many positives this year.
And unlike “last time” the Sox have tons of salary space to work with. Prior to executing the rebuild they we’re pretty much capped out for the amount they were willing/able to spend for most of the previous decade, making it difficult to add high end pieces scepter through trade.
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  #49  
Old 09-30-2019, 10:58 PM
A. Cavatica A. Cavatica is offline
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Originally Posted by voodoochile View Post
First couple of days after the season ends always feel weird. I am instinctively checking what time the game starts tonight and getting read to load MLB.TV on the iPad or other device, but alas... no baseball for voodoo...
Here, I'll give you a simulated in-season post to keep you going.

Covey had his second consecutive successful start, facing zero batters again and remaining perfect on the week (even though he was hit hard in warmups). They have finally found the right way to use him!
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  #50  
Old 09-30-2019, 11:28 PM
WhiteSox5187 WhiteSox5187 is offline
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Originally Posted by GoSox2K3 View Post
Too be honest, I think he's being overly negative (as usual). Listing to him, you'd think the rebuild barely broke even this year with some good stuff and some equally bad stuff. I don't agree with that at all.

If I would have predicted last year that Giolito, Yoan, and Anderson plus Robert and Madrigal all will have wildly successful seasons this year - specifically Lucas would be an all-star, Moncada would slash .315/.365/.548 while playing superb defense at 3rd, Anderson would win the batting title, Abreu would lead the A.L. in RBIs, that Robert and Madrigal would zoom up to AAA and look pretty darn good at that level, you guys probably would have thought I was completely stoned. Not to mention that McCann would turn out to be a great pickup and Collins would start to look like he might be able to be a high OPS guy after all. Our 2019 draft looked pretty good too with Vaughn and a number of promising prep players.

Cease made it to the majors and still looks very promising despite his struggles. Eloy looks like he could hit 40 or 50 HRs next year. There were some downsides among rebuild pieces. Lopez regressed. In the minors, Hansen is basically a non-prospect now. But I don't see the progress and the regression to be anywhere close to even.

But Margalus seems to think we were barely treading water this year and concludes that "the course is still leading the White Sox into the same same territory that got them in trouble the last time." He says "they're going to have to add from the outside". Right, because the Cubs, Astros, or any other successful team didn't add anyone from the outside to put them over the top. Same tired old dark cloud stuff about how terrible this FO is and will likely lead us to ultimate failure. I don't find that very insightful at all and that is why I gave up on reading Sox Machine a while ago.

But hey, everyone is entitled to their opinion on how this is playing out and will play out. He might be right on the money and this time next year he can tell us "I told you so" if this team crashes and burns. I just choose not to wallow in so much perpetual negativity when there were so many positives this year.
They are going to have to add from the outside and his point would be and is they have REALLY struggled when it comes to adding major league talent from outside the organization under Hahn for whatever reason. The only two guys who come to mind are McCann and Colome and they both had some serious regression in the second half.

I have said this before but there are some similarities between this team and the 2014 White Sox. They both had the exact same record, they both had some young and talented players they could build around. This time there are probably more young position players and theoretically more help on the farm but the farm system is very top heavy and there is not a lot of depth behind Madrigal and Robert.

But the Sox will need to go outside the system to augment their roster and this creates two problems: 1) Hahn’s aforementioned struggles with identifying and acquiring major league talent outside the system 2) Ownership’s reluctance to spend market rate to acquire proven major league talent. Since this is the exact same front office that failed at building a winner around a young core before, I get why Margalus or any other Sox fan would be weary of this front office’s ability to pull this off.
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  #51  
Old 09-30-2019, 11:31 PM
WhiteSox5187 WhiteSox5187 is offline
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Originally Posted by voodoochile View Post
And unlike “last time” the Sox have tons of salary space to work with. Prior to executing the rebuild they we’re pretty much capped out for the amount they were willing/able to spend for most of the previous decade, making it difficult to add high end pieces scepter through trade.
Going into the 2015 season, the Sox had a tons of space to work with too. They decided to allocate that money to Cabrera, Robertson, Adam LaRoche and a year of Jeff Smardizja. It was after that they essentially said they had no more money to spend, and as I recall LaRoche’s contract was the biggest one they handed out and the one that really tied their hands
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  #52  
Old 09-30-2019, 11:36 PM
ChiSoxNationPres ChiSoxNationPres is offline
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Originally Posted by GoSox2K3 View Post
Too be honest, I think he's being overly negative (as usual). Listing to him, you'd think the rebuild barely broke even this year with some good stuff and some equally bad stuff. I don't agree with that at all.

If I would have predicted last year that Giolito, Yoan, and Anderson plus Robert and Madrigal all will have wildly successful seasons this year - specifically Lucas would be an all-star, Moncada would slash .315/.365/.548 while playing superb defense at 3rd, Anderson would win the batting title, Abreu would lead the A.L. in RBIs, that Robert and Madrigal would zoom up to AAA and look pretty darn good at that level, you guys probably would have thought I was completely stoned. Not to mention that McCann would turn out to be a great pickup and Collins would start to look like he might be able to be a high OPS guy after all. Our 2019 draft looked pretty good too with Vaughn and a number of promising prep players.

Cease made it to the majors and still looks very promising despite his struggles. Eloy looks like he could hit 40 or 50 HRs next year. There were some downsides among rebuild pieces. Lopez regressed. In the minors, Hansen is basically a non-prospect now. But I don't see the progress and the regression to be anywhere close to even.

But Margalus seems to think we were barely treading water this year and concludes that "the course is still leading the White Sox into the same same territory that got them in trouble the last time." He says "they're going to have to add from the outside". Right, because the Cubs, Astros, or any other successful team didn't add anyone from the outside to put them over the top. Same tired old dark cloud stuff about how terrible this FO is and will likely lead us to ultimate failure. I don't find that very insightful at all and that is why I gave up on reading Sox Machine a while ago.

But hey, everyone is entitled to their opinion on how this is playing out and will play out. He might be right on the money and this time next year he can tell us "I told you so" if this team crashes and burns. I just choose not to wallow in so much perpetual negativity when there were so many positives this year.
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Originally Posted by voodoochile View Post
And unlike “last time” the Sox have tons of salary space to work with. Prior to executing the rebuild they we’re pretty much capped out for the amount they were willing/able to spend for most of the previous decade, making it difficult to add high end pieces scepter through trade.
Yeah agree with all of this. Not sure I could have asked for more than what happened this season. Outside of the couple of pitching injuries, this season was wildly successful for the rebuild. Over the last few months with the articles and podcasts, SoxMachine just doesn't seem to get it, same with a number of posters on here.

Like no **** Hahn isn't coming out and promising big signings this offseason, as you can't assume a great player will automatically sign with you over all the other teams that want him. There also aren't that many out there because of extensions, Rendon doesn't make sense due to position, no OF FAs are stars, and then there are only Cole, MadBum, and Strasburg (if he even becomes a FA). Lot's of teams want those pitchers as well. Hahn will absolutely be aggressive and diligent in his search to acquire a SP, RF, and DH like he said, and there's a good chance they will be more than quality contributors. Look at who he was targeting last offseason: Harper, Machado, Corbin, Grandal, Pederson, Cruz, Ottavino, Moustakas, Brantley. All of them are good players. He used their financial flexibility at the time to acquire Alonso and Jay to lure Manny, and were to be only 1 year sunk costs if they play well. So they were not "supplementing the core" players.

The Sox have never had this amount of empty salary space for the next several years combined with now a legit young cheap core ever. How is this at all similar to what the Sox have been in the same position before? Not sure how people can't see the big picture and not be very optimistic about what's ahead.
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  #53  
Old 10-01-2019, 12:05 AM
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Originally Posted by A. Cavatica View Post
Here, I'll give you a simulated in-season post to keep you going.

Covey had his second consecutive successful start, facing zero batters again and remaining perfect on the week (even though he was hit hard in warmups). They have finally found the right way to use him!
If we still had the POTW feature, that's a winner...
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  #54  
Old 10-01-2019, 12:10 AM
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Originally Posted by WhiteSox5187 View Post
Going into the 2015 season, the Sox had a tons of space to work with too. They decided to allocate that money to Cabrera, Robertson, Adam LaRoche and a year of Jeff Smardizja. It was after that they essentially said they had no more money to spend, and as I recall LaRoche’s contract was the biggest one they handed out and the one that really tied their hands
That's what, $40M? 45? And the only reason it was that low is they traded for Smardizja who was already signed to a reasonable deal?

This coming off season they probably have $70M in cap space to play with and also have a more talented lineup than in 2015 with 7/9 lineup slots already filled by + bats or potential all stars. No we don't have a Sale/Quintana at the top of the rotation, but we've got a lot more young depth and Gio/Cease/Kopech have the chance to be better than Sale/Quintana/Smardizja
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  #55  
Old 10-01-2019, 12:45 AM
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Originally Posted by voodoochile View Post
That's what, $40M? 45? And the only reason it was that low is they traded for Smardizja who was already signed to a reasonable deal?

This coming off season they probably have $70M in cap space to play with and also have a more talented lineup than in 2015 with 7/9 lineup slots already filled by + bats or potential all stars. No we don't have a Sale/Quintana at the top of the rotation, but we've got a lot more young depth and Gio/Cease/Kopech have the chance to be better than Sale/Quintana/Smardizja
We did not have 7 “plus bats.” 3B, LF, SS, 1B, and C were the “plus bats” we had last year.
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  #56  
Old 10-01-2019, 02:11 AM
ChiTownTrojan ChiTownTrojan is offline
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We did not have 7 “plus bats.” 3B, LF, SS, 1B, and C were the “plus bats” we had last year.
He’s including Robert and Madrigal as part of the 7.
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  #57  
Old 10-01-2019, 06:41 AM
Frater Perdurabo Frater Perdurabo is offline
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Let me try to summarize succinctly:

1. While on the surface we would appear to be in the same place as after the 2014 season, things are somewhat different;

2. The current cost-controlled core (Giolito, Kopech, Cease, Moncada, Anderson, Eloy) is younger and deeper than was the cost-controlled core as of 2014 (Sale, Quintana, Rodon, Eaton, Abreu);

3. The current batch of top Sox prospects (Robert, Vaughn, Madrigal) is ranked higher than the post-2014/preseason 2015 batch (Semien, etc.);

4. I think the biggest question for Hahn/KW is this: “Given how so many previous veteran acquisitions - Keppinger, Bonifacio, LaRoche, Samardzija, Navarro, Shields, Castillo, Alonso, Jay - completely underperformed both their contracts as well as your and our expectations, what lessons did you learn regarding, and what kinds of changes have you made to, organizational major league scouting and analytics departments, to reduce the chance that future major league acquisitions turn out to be busts?”
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Last edited by Frater Perdurabo; 10-01-2019 at 06:55 AM.
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  #58  
Old 10-01-2019, 08:11 AM
A. Cavatica A. Cavatica is offline
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3. The current batch of top Sox prospects (Robert, Vaughn, Madrigal) is ranked higher than the post-2014/preseason 2015 batch (Semien, etc.);
Semien had graduated by the end of 2014. The prospect list began with Anderson but was very thin after that.
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  #59  
Old 10-01-2019, 08:28 AM
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Semien is gonna finish in the top 5 in AL MVP votes btw
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  #60  
Old 10-01-2019, 08:31 AM
Mohoney Mohoney is offline
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He’s including Robert and Madrigal as part of the 7.
Can’t assume anything with rookies. It’s such a massive jump. Look no further than Giolito and Moncada.
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