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  #16  
Old 05-22-2018, 04:14 PM
Mohoney Mohoney is online now
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Originally Posted by HomeFish
I'm not going to count the Sox out on any big name free agents. I think Hahn has earned the benefit of the doubt that he means what he says, and I do think that "hey, be the highly paid veteran on an up and coming team with many good prospects in the wings" is a message that can appeal to some free agents.

That said, arguably the two biggest free agent signings in Chicago baseball history, in terms of bringing championships, were Jermaine Dye and Ben Zobrist. Not exactly Machado-level guys who signed for big bucks.
I think Jon Lester had more to do with the Cubs’ success than Ben Zobrist, and Lester signed for big bucks.
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  #17  
Old 05-22-2018, 05:10 PM
Lip Man 1 Lip Man 1 is offline
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When the last free agent the Sox signed that caused ripples across MLB was Albert Belle in the winter before the 1997 season, you wonder if the Sox can or will be able to convince someone of that caliber to come here to play.

Last edited by Lip Man 1; 05-22-2018 at 10:48 PM.
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  #18  
Old 05-22-2018, 05:47 PM
Foulke You Foulke You is offline
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Originally Posted by Lip Man 1 View Post
When the last free agent the Sox signed that causes ripples across MLB was Albert Belle in the winter before the 1997 season, you wonder if the Sox can or will be able to convince someone of that caliber to come here to play.
The convincing has to come with the dollar amount and contract length. Belle came here because the Sox made far and away the best offer. The Sox have shown that when they make the best offers to a free agent, they can indeed sign players. Off the top of my head, Adam Dunn, David Robertson, Melky Cabrera, Jose Abreu, Jesse Crain, Scott Linebrink, etc. all signed here when the dollars and years were the best offer. (I think Abreu might have taken a few million less than Colorado offered to play here) The problem is the Sox so rarely make the best offer and almost always get beaten on contract length. Cespedes and Alex Gordon were only offered 3 year deals in the offseason preceding 2016. I don't think they even made an offer to Justin Upton.

Torii Hunter and Bartolo Colon were going to sign here but both times the Angels beat the Sox on contract duration and the Sox backed out. I don't buy the fact that the Sox are an incredibly tough sell to free agents. Chicago is a great city to live especially if you're wealthy, the training staff is top notch, the travel schedule in the midwest is quite favorable, and the Sox Spring Training facility is top notch. The biggest issue preventing the Sox from signing free agents is not media profile or attendance but dollar amount and contract length. The team consistently gets beaten in that department and until that changes, they won't be a player in free agency.
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  #19  
Old 05-22-2018, 08:14 PM
asindc asindc is offline
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Originally Posted by HomeFish View Post
I'm not going to count the Sox out on any big name free agents. I think Hahn has earned the benefit of the doubt that he means what he says, and I do think that "hey, be the highly paid veteran on an up and coming team with many good prospects in the wings" is a message that can appeal to some free agents.

That said, arguably the two biggest free agent signings in Chicago baseball history, in terms of bringing championships, were Jermaine Dye and Ben Zobrist. Not exactly Machado-level guys who signed for big bucks.
It is not Hahn who should be doubted/not doubted, it is Reinsdorf.
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  #20  
Old 05-22-2018, 08:52 PM
Hitmen77 Hitmen77 is online now
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Originally Posted by Foulke You View Post
The convincing has to come with the dollar amount and contract length. Belle came here because the Sox made far and away the best offer. The Sox have shown that when they make the best offers to a free agent, they can indeed sign players. Off the top of my head, Adam Dunn, David Robertson, Melky Cabrera, Jose Abreu, Jesse Crain, Scott Linebrink, etc. all signed here when the dollars and years were the best offer. (I think Abreu might have taken a few million less than Colorado offered to play here) The problem is the Sox so rarely make the best offer and almost always get beaten on contract length. Cespedes and Alex Gordon were only offered 3 year deals in the offseason preceding 2016. I don't think they even made an offer to Justin Upton.

Torii Hunter and Bartolo Colon were going to sign here but both times the Angels beat the Sox on contract duration and the Sox backed out. I don't buy the fact that the Sox are an incredibly tough sell to free agents. Chicago is a great city to live especially if you're wealthy, the training staff is top notch, the travel schedule in the midwest is quite favorable, and the Sox Spring Training facility is top notch. The biggest issue preventing the Sox from signing free agents is not media profile or attendance but dollar amount and contract length. The team consistently gets beaten in that department and until that changes, they won't be a player in free agency.
^^This.

For all the woe-is-us talk around here, I find it hard to believe that most free agents will pass on the Sox if they offer them the best dollar amount and contract length.

I'm not taking a position one way or another here about whether the Sox will or should do this. But this oft-repeated notion that players would never want to come here even for the best offer is nonsense IMO.
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  #21  
Old 05-22-2018, 10:52 PM
Lip Man 1 Lip Man 1 is offline
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Originally Posted by Foulke You View Post
The convincing has to come with the dollar amount and contract length. Belle came here because the Sox made far and away the best offer. The Sox have shown that when they make the best offers to a free agent, they can indeed sign players. Off the top of my head, Adam Dunn, David Robertson, Melky Cabrera, Jose Abreu, Jesse Crain, Scott Linebrink, etc. all signed here when the dollars and years were the best offer.
Outside of Jose' who technically was an international free agent none of the guys you mentioned were considered "all-star," "game changer" types that cause MLB to sit up and say "wow..."

I'm not necessarily disagreeing with you but for the prime guys, the top of the line guys, the Sox just don't get them.

And I agree with some others who have posted that the last decade regardless of money being offered would make one of the top guys think twice. I do think factors over and about money / length factor in, especially when you are making more money than can be spent in a lifetime or your kids lifetimes.
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  #22  
Old 05-23-2018, 11:20 AM
Rocky Soprano Rocky Soprano is offline
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Originally Posted by guillensdisciple View Post
We don't have the history of paying players like Machado, and we need to move on from this delusion. It's not going to happen.
We also don't have the history of having all this talent in the minor leagues. Or having such little money committed to the payroll for the next few years.

We don't have the history is a nonsense argument.
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  #23  
Old 05-23-2018, 12:32 PM
LoveYourSuit LoveYourSuit is online now
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Originally Posted by Lip Man 1 View Post
When the last free agent the Sox signed that caused ripples across MLB was Albert Belle in the winter before the 1997 season, you wonder if the Sox can or will be able to convince someone of that caliber to come here to play.
The Sox could sell FAs on playing next to Frank Thomas back then. They have no one on the current ML roster that makes that kind of impact.
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  #24  
Old 05-23-2018, 01:25 PM
ChiSoxNationPres ChiSoxNationPres is offline
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Originally Posted by Rocky Soprano View Post
We also don't have the history of having all this talent in the minor leagues. Or having such little money committed to the payroll for the next few years.

We don't have the history is a nonsense argument.
This is what I eluded to also before. We haven't had this type of situation ever in the FA era. Most of us are taking the last 15 or so years as a basis for how the front office will operate this coming offseason, and in those years the Sox have only had $20-30 mil in salary space during offseasons. That is not the case for this offseason, we probably have close to $80 mil in space. Of course that doesn't mean the should or will spend an additional $80 mil after this season.
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  #25  
Old 05-23-2018, 02:12 PM
Foulke You Foulke You is offline
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Originally Posted by Lip Man 1 View Post
Outside of Jose' who technically was an international free agent none of the guys you mentioned were considered "all-star," "game changer" types that cause MLB to sit up and say "wow..."

I'm not necessarily disagreeing with you but for the prime guys, the top of the line guys, the Sox just don't get them.

And I agree with some others who have posted that the last decade regardless of money being offered would make one of the top guys think twice. I do think factors over and about money / length factor in, especially when you are making more money than can be spent in a lifetime or your kids lifetimes.
I agree that most of the free agents I named are mid-tier type FAs because that is pretty much the only type of free agent the Sox shop for. As you mentioned, there are probably a few other factors that play into their decision. Schools, taxes, travel perks, geographic location, etc probably all play a small part in the collective decision but make no mistake, the two biggest factors are dollars and contract length. I'll even throw no-trade clauses and opt-out clauses into the mix too because that is something other teams hand out to players but the Sox never do.

The overriding factor in top tier free agents not coming here is because of the Sox self-imposed financial cap on free agent spending. To convince top names to play here, the Sox need to pony up expensive long term deals, hand out no-trade clauses, and award opt-out clauses. All of these things cause Jerry Reinsdorf to break out in hives. The Sox never bother negotiating with the top tier free agents and Boras clients because they are simply priced out of Jerry Reindsorf's comfort zone. This is something the Sox will need to change if they truly want this rebuild to succeed.
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  #26  
Old 05-23-2018, 03:01 PM
DonnieDarko DonnieDarko is offline
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Originally Posted by Foulke You View Post
This is something the Sox will need to change if they truly want this rebuild to succeed.
From what we know, everything about this rebuild has been out of Jerry's comfort zone. So why not hope that contracts to big name free agents can be the same? I get it, the past burns bright and all, but at the risk of my normal logical fandom shrieking at me: have a little faith.

If it doesn't happen, it doesn't happen. But considering the circumstances (the rebuild, this being the ONLY real good FA year until after the Sox are expected to contend, Hahn doling out the contracts instead of Williams), I think that we can at least hope that the team will be more competitive when it comes to bidding for the top FAs this offseason.
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  #27  
Old 05-23-2018, 03:46 PM
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DumpJerry DumpJerry is offline
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Here's the thing about the "Sox have not signed a FA like this before:"

I came of age as a Sox fan in the 70's. My four years of high school coincided very nicely with Veeck's four years of ownership.

All through the 70's we were conditioned that the Sox had no money. Veeck bought the team because he was the only potential buyer who would keep them in Chicago. There was one other potential buyer who actually had money (Veeck had heart, not wallet) that was all set to move the Sox to Milwaukee because they lost the Braves to Atlanta. Veeck swooped in to save the team for us and the Seattle Pilots then became the Brewers.

While it was fun as hell being a Sox fan during Veeck's reign, the team was always broke compared to the other teams in MLB. We were conditioned to accept this as gospel. When Veeck finally cried uncle and had to sell, Ed DeBartolo wanted to buy the Sox. DeBartolo was loaded with money. MLB denied him ownership, claiming he had "unsavory connections." This was bull**** as he was able to pass an even more strict background check by the NFL to buy the 49ers. MLB did not want DeBartolo to turn the White Sox into MLB's 49ers-a team stacked with top talent that would be in the hunt every October. After he was denied, Uncle Jerry and Eddie came in a bought the team, albeit with less cash on hand after the purchase.

We have been conditioned since the advent of Big Money in pro sports to accept the Sox are broke. That used to be true, it no longer is true.
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  #28  
Old 05-23-2018, 06:39 PM
A. Cavatica A. Cavatica is offline
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Originally Posted by DumpJerry View Post
MLB did not want DeBartolo to turn the White Sox into MLB's 49ers-a team stacked with top talent that would be in the hunt every October. After he was denied, Uncle Jerry and Eddie came in a bought the team
Mission accomplished.
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  #29  
Old 05-25-2018, 02:42 PM
Foulke You Foulke You is offline
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Originally Posted by DonnieDarko View Post
From what we know, everything about this rebuild has been out of Jerry's comfort zone. So why not hope that contracts to big name free agents can be the same? I get it, the past burns bright and all, but at the risk of my normal logical fandom shrieking at me: have a little faith.

If it doesn't happen, it doesn't happen. But considering the circumstances (the rebuild, this being the ONLY real good FA year until after the Sox are expected to contend, Hahn doling out the contracts instead of Williams), I think that we can at least hope that the team will be more competitive when it comes to bidding for the top FAs this offseason.
The fact that the team payroll is so ridiculously low in 2019 and beyond is the only thing giving me hope that they could possibly land a "big fish" or two this time. The Sox could theoretically give Bryce Harper a 10 year, $400,000,000 contract next season and our team payroll for 2019 would likely be around $50,000,000 or $60,000,000. (Not saying that's the correct decision, just pointing out as an example) Even after the big contract, they would still fall within Jerry's comfort zone. The big issue the Sox faced in recent years was when their payroll got to around $110,000,000, they were never willing to sign the one or two players they needed to put them over the top and would instead turn to bargain signings to fill out the open holes on the roster. (Austin Jackson and Alex Avila in 2016 come to mind, Orlando Hudson in 2012, etc)
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  #30  
Old 05-25-2018, 04:39 PM
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Originally Posted by Foulke You View Post
The fact that the team payroll is so ridiculously low in 2019 and beyond is the only thing giving me hope that they could possibly land a "big fish" or two this time. The Sox could theoretically give Bryce Harper a 10 year, $400,000,000 contract next season and our team payroll for 2019 would likely be around $50,000,000 or $60,000,000. (Not saying that's the correct decision, just pointing out as an example) Even after the big contract, they would still fall within Jerry's comfort zone. The big issue the Sox faced in recent years was when their payroll got to around $110,000,000, they were never willing to sign the one or two players they needed to put them over the top and would instead turn to bargain signings to fill out the open holes on the roster. (Austin Jackson and Alex Avila in 2016 come to mind, Orlando Hudson in 2012, etc)
Theoretically, a contract like that could work within the Sox typical payroll constraints for the next decade if it's frontloaded like crazy:

60
60
50
45
40
35
30
30
25
25

It would be unprecedented, but the big financial blow would come during years when guys like Moncada, Kopech, Eloy, etc are very cheap. Then when it's time to pony up the big bucks for them, Bryce/Manny is "only" denting the payroll by 25-30M.
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