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  #46  
Old 02-08-2013, 05:37 PM
sullythered sullythered is offline
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Oh I see. So it's negative to believe that he's likely to get hurt despite everything that's been said on the matter, but it's perfectly okay to believe there's little reason to believe he'll get hurt despite everything that's been said on the matter. Because, you know, kool-aid. Got it. As long as that's your take and not based on anything solid. Just making sure we understand each other. And that after six pages you haven't once made a legitimate counterpoint to the notion and continue to argue semantics.

BTW, if you knew anything about that draft, you'd know that Sale fell to us BECAUSE of his injury concerns, and because most scouts felt that for him to have a successful career, he'd be in the pen.
Do you even read these posts before you respond. You made an absolute statement, that I pointed out as incorrect. I even gave an example of the correct way to argue your side of the argument. I agree that there is some concern. I also argued that if those concerns were going to come to fruition, it would have most likely happened in the first season in which Sale was heavily taxed, inning-wise. He did not get hurt in that season. That isn't Kool-Aid, or semantics. I'm basing my opinion on, you know, stuff that actually has happened. Can Sale still get hurt? Sure. Is it much, much more promising that the concerns of some scouts might not come true, being that he just got through a near-200 inning year without injury. Yes.

And, Mr. Snarky-pants, if you knew anything about the draft, you would know that Sale dropped because he wanted a guarantee that he would be on the major league roster immediately, so as to start his arbitration clock.

Edit: Also, he fell about 5 spots from projections. Hardly a free-fall.
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Last edited by sullythered; 02-08-2013 at 05:43 PM.
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  #47  
Old 02-08-2013, 07:06 PM
blandman blandman is offline
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Originally Posted by sullythered View Post
Do you even read these posts before you respond. You made an absolute statement, that I pointed out as incorrect. I even gave an example of the correct way to argue your side of the argument. I agree that there is some concern. I also argued that if those concerns were going to come to fruition, it would have most likely happened in the first season in which Sale was heavily taxed, inning-wise. He did not get hurt in that season. That isn't Kool-Aid, or semantics. I'm basing my opinion on, you know, stuff that actually has happened. Can Sale still get hurt? Sure. Is it much, much more promising that the concerns of some scouts might not come true, being that he just got through a near-200 inning year without injury. Yes.

And, Mr. Snarky-pants, if you knew anything about the draft, you would know that Sale dropped because he wanted a guarantee that he would be on the major league roster immediately, so as to start his arbitration clock.

Edit: Also, he fell about 5 spots from projections. Hardly a free-fall.
Okay, you know what. I apologize, you are basing it on something. You're just wrong about what you're basing it on. Sale DID get hurt last year. And he had performance issues three times because of it. Just because he wasn't on the DL doesn't mean he wasn't hurt.

Did you watch the draft? Even the experts there explained that Sale dropped because of issues with his frame and motion. Some even went as far as to say the White Sox reached because the guy was gonna spend his career in the pen.
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  #48  
Old 02-08-2013, 07:07 PM
blandman blandman is offline
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All scouts agree that Sale is no guaranteed hall of famer like Fautino de los Santos.
That kid is electric.
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  #49  
Old 02-08-2013, 07:15 PM
DSpivack DSpivack is online now
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That kid is electric.
That kid is now 26 years old and a 5.80 ERA in AAA last season.

He was just claimed by the Padres after Milwaukee waived him.

http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2013/0...os-santos.html
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  #50  
Old 02-08-2013, 08:51 PM
sullythered sullythered is offline
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Okay, you know what. I apologize, you are basing it on something. You're just wrong about what you're basing it on. Sale DID get hurt last year. And he had performance issues three times because of it. Just because he wasn't on the DL doesn't mean he wasn't hurt.

Did you watch the draft? Even the experts there explained that Sale dropped because of issues with his frame and motion. Some even went as far as to say the White Sox reached because the guy was gonna spend his career in the pen.
He was never injured. He pitched nearly 200 innings in his first year out of the pen. How you can extrapolate that a phantom injury that never occurred caused "performance issues" more than the much much more likely scenario that he had some fatigue because it was his first year pitching a starter's innings is beyond me. If he was hurt, the Sox (you know, the best training staff in sports) would have shut him down. Didn't happen. You seem to be the one preaching semantics. The evidence is on my side here.

Chris Sale was not considered a reach. He just wasn't.
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  #51  
Old 02-08-2013, 11:11 PM
blandman blandman is offline
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Originally Posted by DSpivack View Post
That kid is now 26 years old and a 5.80 ERA in AAA last season.

He was just claimed by the Padres after Milwaukee waived him.

http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2013/0...os-santos.html
Sarcasm man.
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  #52  
Old 02-08-2013, 11:11 PM
blandman blandman is offline
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He was never injured. He pitched nearly 200 innings in his first year out of the pen. How you can extrapolate that a phantom injury that never occurred caused "performance issues" more than the much much more likely scenario that he had some fatigue because it was his first year pitching a starter's innings is beyond me. If he was hurt, the Sox (you know, the best training staff in sports) would have shut him down. Didn't happen. You seem to be the one preaching semantics. The evidence is on my side here.

Chris Sale was not considered a reach. He just wasn't.
Your denial is beyond reproach.



Seriously though, if you're gonna pretend like dropping ten mph off a fastball is normal and not a break down of the body in some fashion, occuring not once, not twice, but THREE TIMES over the course of the year, I can't even talk to you. Just go about your business.
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  #53  
Old 02-08-2013, 11:29 PM
sullythered sullythered is offline
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Originally Posted by blandman View Post
Your denial is beyond reproach.



Seriously though, if you're gonna pretend like dropping ten mph off a fastball is normal and not a break down of the body in some fashion, occuring not once, not twice, but THREE TIMES over the course of the year, I can't even talk to you. Just go about your business.
And if you don't think arm fatigue isnt totally normal for a guy in Chris Sale's position, you are in denial. Do yourself a favor and check out Justin Verlander's (another guy with a very dangerous delivery) numbers in his first season as a starter, also at 23 years of age. They are nearly identical to Sale's, splits showing signs of fatigue at points in the season. The primary difference is that Sale struck out a hell of a lot more batters than Verlander. Also, Verlander's points of fatigue hurt him a lot worse than Sale.

And at no point did Sale lose ten (HA!) MPH on his fastball. As a starter, he scaled back the heater to around 93 at the outset. He wasn't topping out at 83 at any point. It is hilarious to me when people pull these velocity numbers out of their asses.
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  #54  
Old 02-08-2013, 11:53 PM
DSpivack DSpivack is online now
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Sarcasm man.
Sorry. I saw that FDLS news and thought of WSI, anyway.
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  #55  
Old 02-09-2013, 12:07 AM
blandman blandman is offline
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Originally Posted by sullythered View Post
And if you don't think arm fatigue isnt totally normal for a guy in Chris Sale's position, you are in denial. Do yourself a favor and check out Justin Verlander's (another guy with a very dangerous delivery) numbers in his first season as a starter, also at 23 years of age. They are nearly identical to Sale's, splits showing signs of fatigue at points in the season. The primary difference is that Sale struck out a hell of a lot more batters than Verlander. Also, Verlander's points of fatigue hurt him a lot worse than Sale.

And at no point did Sale lose ten (HA!) MPH on his fastball. As a starter, he scaled back the heater to around 93 at the outset. He wasn't topping out at 83 at any point. It is hilarious to me when people pull these velocity numbers out of their asses.

I'm done with this. Live in denial of facts all you want, comparing guys built like sticks with horrible form to the best pitcher in baseball. You win. I can't compete with that nonsense.
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  #56  
Old 02-09-2013, 12:28 AM
sullythered sullythered is offline
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I'm done with this. Live in denial of facts all you want, comparing guys built like sticks with horrible form to the best pitcher in baseball. You win. I can't compete with that nonsense.
Verlander has a horribly violent delivery and in his first season as a starter, at the same age no less, was almost identical to Sale's, fatigue and all. So yeah, be dismissive all you want, the actual evidence lies with me. All you have is wind, as usual.

Edit: Actually, upon further review, Sale's first season as a starter was pretty significantly better than Verlander's.
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  #57  
Old 02-09-2013, 09:36 AM
blandman blandman is offline
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Originally Posted by sullythered View Post
Verlander has a horribly violent delivery and in his first season as a starter, at the same age no less, was almost identical to Sale's, fatigue and all. So yeah, be dismissive all you want, the actual evidence lies with me. All you have is wind, as usual.

Edit: Actually, upon further review, Sale's first season as a starter was pretty significantly better than Verlander's.
Oh yeah, same guy. Other than the fact that Verlander's shorter and has 45 more pounds of muscle. And doesn't have the worst possible throwing motion in baseball in regards to injuries.

Believe what you want. I don't care, there's no taking your blinders off. Sale is the same as Verlander.
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  #58  
Old 02-09-2013, 01:11 PM
sullythered sullythered is offline
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Oh yeah, same guy. Other than the fact that Verlander's shorter and has 45 more pounds of muscle. And doesn't have the worst possible throwing motion in baseball in regards to injuries.

Believe what you want. I don't care, there's no taking your blinders off. Sale is the same as Verlander.
Ugh. It's like talking to a wall. I didn't say they were the same guy. That is the type of overstatement you would make. I compared two pitchers with violent motions who had nearly identical years at the same age in their first full MLB starting seasons. The critics all thought Verlander would get hurt, too. It is as solid a comparison as can be made. Also, Verlander was much skinnier at 23 than he is currently.

I can also compare Sale to Max Scherzer, who has the worst possible throwing motion in baseball and actually HAS been hurt. He is vastly more likely to be badly hurt than Sale, based on stuff that has actually happened.
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  #59  
Old 02-09-2013, 01:17 PM
wilburaga wilburaga is offline
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Originally Posted by DSpivack View Post
That kid is now 26 years old and a 5.80 ERA in AAA last season.

He was just claimed by the Padres after Milwaukee waived him.

http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2013/0...os-santos.html
This transaction just beclouds the issue as to which cap DLS will wear to his enshrinement.
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  #60  
Old 02-09-2013, 01:42 PM
blandman blandman is offline
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Originally Posted by sullythered View Post
Ugh. It's like talking to a wall. I didn't say they were the same guy. That is the type of overstatement you would make. I compared two pitchers with violent motions who had nearly identical years at the same age in their first full MLB starting seasons. The critics all thought Verlander would get hurt, too. It is as solid a comparison as can be made. Also, Verlander was much skinnier at 23 than he is currently.

I can also compare Sale to Max Scherzer, who has the worst possible throwing motion in baseball and actually HAS been hurt. He is vastly more likely to be badly hurt than Sale, based on stuff that has actually happened.
You CAN'T compare the two is the problem. Comparing Sale to Verlander to make your case...you might as well take a hitter and compare him to Verlander and make the same case. It makes absolutely no sense.

Chris Sale is FRAIL. I cannot make the letters large enough to indicate how FRAIL he is. He is 6'6'' and only 180 pounds. His BMI would say he is starving to death. (before you pick on this, that's a joke. BMI doesn't tell people they're starving).

On top of that, he has a motion that puts tremendous strain on his elbow, and evidence last year showed that on a few occassions already.

Verlander is shorter than Sale and weighs more. A lot more. Like a small person more. On top of that: HE HAS ABOUT THE MOST FLAWLESS PITCHING MECHANICS IN THE GAME. I can't speak on whether they were different his first year...but who cares? Did Sale do the same this offseason and learn to throw differently with pinpoint control, command, and no loss of speed? Comparing Sale to whatever you think Verlander used to be makes no sense because what Verlander is today is so far removed from that it has no basis in a rational argument.

Verlander is a once in a generation talent. It's foolish to compare anyone to him for any reason, unless it's another one of the all time greats.

Now...Max Scherzer does have a violent motion. Not as bad as Sale's, which puts significantly more stress on his elbow (Scherzer's follow through makes it look worse than it actually is). But Scherzer is shorter than even Verlander, and still outweighs Sale by 40 freakin' pounds.

Last edited by blandman; 02-09-2013 at 01:49 PM.
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