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  #46  
Old 02-13-2013, 01:59 PM
TheVulture TheVulture is offline
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Originally Posted by amsteel View Post
We're also going into the season with a DH that Ks or HRs, an LF that can't BB...
It blows my mind that Viciedo is always identified as the player on this team who can't draw walks. In his first full season, he drew a walk every 19.4 PA. Compare to established veterans like Rios, who drew walks at a rate of one per 24.7 PA, or Ramirez at 38.8. Still people argue Viciedo won't ever be an effective hitter based on his walk rate in his first full season as a full time major leaguer while claiming Rios is a solid choice as a third hitter when two out of the last four years he has put up numbers that make Viciedo look like Reggie Jackson in comparison.
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  #47  
Old 02-13-2013, 02:00 PM
TheVulture TheVulture is offline
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Originally Posted by doublem23 View Post
What? The Sox's 3B collectively hit .201/.286/.314 last season, easily the worst production at that position in the American League (league average - .261/.320/.420). And this is before you even consider Youkilis's non-existent defense for much of the 2nd half. The Sox 3B play was a complete disaster last season.
Not to mention Youk's flag-pole-esque defense.

Oh, wait you did mention it. Apparently, my reading comprehension is going downhill!
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  #48  
Old 02-13-2013, 02:12 PM
TheVulture TheVulture is offline
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Originally Posted by CoopaLoop View Post
Why do they need one?

Flowers is going to (as he should) get a full season's worth of at bats if he's good, bad or terrible.
A full season at the catcher position still typically allows 30-40 starts for the backup at the most important position on the field. IMO, the backup catcher is the most important player on the bench. In the event of injury, catcher is probably the hardest player to replace as well. Maybe Gimenez is better than a Barajas type though, I doubt any of us has enough information on him to ascertain.
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  #49  
Old 02-13-2013, 02:22 PM
blandman blandman is offline
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Originally Posted by TheVulture View Post
It blows my mind that Viciedo is always identified as the player on this team who can't draw walks. In his first full season, he drew a walk every 19.4 PA. Compare to established veterans like Rios, who drew walks at a rate of one per 24.7 PA, or Ramirez at 38.8. Still people argue Viciedo won't ever be an effective hitter based on his walk rate in his first full season as a full time major leaguer while claiming Rios is a solid choice as a third hitter when two out of the last four years he has put up numbers that make Viciedo look like Reggie Jackson in comparison.
It has more to do with the K:BB ratio. None of those guys walk, but Viciedo K's like 5 times more than his miniscule walks. He has obvious trouble with strike zone judgement, and actually walks more because of it, because pitchers are more likely to throw pitches WAY out of the zone multiple times in an at bat. There's a better than decent chance it'll turn into a swing and miss.
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  #50  
Old 02-13-2013, 02:25 PM
blandman blandman is offline
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Originally Posted by doublem23 View Post
What? The Sox's 3B collectively hit .201/.286/.314 last season, easily the worst production at that position in the American League (league average - .261/.320/.420). And this is before you even consider Youkilis's non-existent defense for much of the 2nd half. The Sox 3B play was a complete disaster last season.
I joked about this earlier, but in his time Youk had what? Like 14 bombs and 48 rbi's or something like that? Despite everything, he actually carried the team for a portion of the middle of the summer.
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  #51  
Old 02-13-2013, 02:40 PM
TheVulture TheVulture is offline
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Originally Posted by blandman View Post
It has more to do with the K:BB ratio. None of those guys walk, but Viciedo K's like 5 times more than his miniscule walks. He has obvious trouble with strike zone judgement, and actually walks more because of it, because pitchers are more likely to throw pitches WAY out of the zone multiple times in an at bat. There's a better than decent chance it'll turn into a swing and miss.
If the claim is "a left fielder who can't walk", the K:BB ratio is irrelevant. Dunn has a far better K:BB ratio than Rios, but that doesn't mean Dunn doesn't strike out very much, certainly doesn't indicate he strikes out less than Rios.
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  #52  
Old 02-13-2013, 02:50 PM
blandman blandman is offline
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Originally Posted by TheVulture View Post
If the claim is "a left fielder who can't walk", the K:BB ratio is irrelevant. Dunn has a far better K:BB ratio than Rios, but that doesn't mean Dunn doesn't strike out very much, certainly doesn't indicate he strikes out less than Rios.
Vulture I think the point you're missing is that the pitches Viciedo sees when he walks are almost always more than six inches outside of the zone. This is a function of an extremely poor batting eye, not a good one.
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  #53  
Old 02-13-2013, 02:50 PM
dickallen15 dickallen15 is offline
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Originally Posted by blandman View Post
It has more to do with the K:BB ratio. None of those guys walk, but Viciedo K's like 5 times more than his miniscule walks. He has obvious trouble with strike zone judgement, and actually walks more because of it, because pitchers are more likely to throw pitches WAY out of the zone multiple times in an at bat. There's a better than decent chance it'll turn into a swing and miss.
So strikeouts do matter.
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  #54  
Old 02-13-2013, 02:52 PM
blandman blandman is offline
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Originally Posted by dickallen15 View Post
So strikeouts do matter.
If you can't make contact and can't get on base...well, yeah? If you're hitting .300 or you're getting on base at an above average clip, then of course not.
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  #55  
Old 02-13-2013, 03:18 PM
dickallen15 dickallen15 is offline
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Originally Posted by blandman View Post
If you can't make contact and can't get on base...well, yeah? If you're hitting .300 or you're getting on base at an above average clip, then of course not.
Considering it was his first full season and he is only 23, he did OK. His .300 OBP was .033 less than Adam Dunn. So that is getting on base one less time every 33 plate appearances. One less time every 8 games and he struck out 100 times less.
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  #56  
Old 02-13-2013, 03:55 PM
blandman blandman is offline
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Originally Posted by dickallen15 View Post
Considering it was his first full season and he is only 23, he did OK. His .300 OBP was .033 less than Adam Dunn. So that is getting on base one less time every 33 plate appearances. One less time every 8 games and he struck out 100 times less.
Well, Adam isn't the pinnacle (which shouldn't get an argument from many). But they have different issues. Adam's troubles are missing pitches in the zone, not zone judgement. Dayan's got decent bat speed. But he goes up there like his eyes are closed. He doesn't see many pitches over the plate, especially with strikes on him.

The real problem is numbers like his don't bode well when you talk about likelihood of improvement. Which is why so many scouts are down on him.
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  #57  
Old 02-13-2013, 04:07 PM
dickallen15 dickallen15 is offline
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Originally Posted by blandman View Post
The real problem is numbers like his don't bode well when you talk about likelihood of improvement.
I've heard this before. I'll take my chances on 23 year olds who hit 25 homers their first full year, and can go deep into right center.

There were 56 players that struck out more than Viciedo last season.

I wonder what you thought about Austin Jackson a year ago. Got on at about the same clip as Viciedo and struck out 50% more.

Carlos Lee was quite similar to Viciedo at the same age, although he got a few more hits, but less strikeouts, walks and homers.

Last edited by dickallen15; 02-13-2013 at 04:25 PM.
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  #58  
Old 02-13-2013, 04:34 PM
blandman blandman is offline
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Originally Posted by dickallen15 View Post
I've heard this before. I'll take my chances on 23 year olds who hit 25 homers their first full year, and can go deep into right center.

I wonder what you thought about Austin Jackson a year ago. Got on at about the same clip as Viciedo and struck out 50% more.

Carlos Lee was quite similar to Viciedo at the same age, although he got a few more hits, but less strikeouts, walks and homers.
You could have made that same argument about Beckham. Didn't make the scouts wrong.

I'm not terribly familiar with Austin Jackson's struggles, but I'm pretty sure Caballo isn't really comparable. I think you're missing the big picture with Viciedo. He doesn't make enough contact, and that's because he doesn't see the ball (or his approach is such that he'd guessing). That's not something Caballo or anyone else I can think of dealt with.
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  #59  
Old 02-13-2013, 04:35 PM
WhiteSox5187 WhiteSox5187 is offline
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Originally Posted by dickallen15 View Post
There were 56 players that struck out more than Viciedo last season.

I wonder what you thought about Austin Jackson a year ago. Got on at about the same clip as Viciedo and struck out 50% more.

Carlos Lee was quite similar to Viciedo at the same age, although he got a few more hits, but less strikeouts, walks and homers.
I really don't understand why people are willing to give up on Viciedo. I don't think he's going to turn into Frank Thomas or anything and he might strike out a lot but the guy is still 23 years old and has a lot of raw power. He might not be the kind of guy we can build around offensively but it is waaaay too early to write him off.
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  #60  
Old 02-13-2013, 04:38 PM
blandman blandman is offline
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Originally Posted by WhiteSox5187 View Post

I really don't understand why people are willing to give up on Viciedo. I don't think he's going to turn into Frank Thomas or anything and he might strike out a lot but the guy is still 23 years old and has a lot of raw power. He might not be the kind of guy we can build around offensively but it is waaaay too early to write him off.
Probably because 23 years old and power are really not that much to go on?

I'm in the minority here, obviously, but there's a reason scouts weren't high on the kid to begin with. And his numbers are just something you don't see really ever (what with so little contact and so few walks) in someone that ends up sticking. He's got such good bat speed that it's really a shame that he has the approach he does. It's why I keep saying they need to send him down for a year and come up with a whole new approach. Or maybe get him some glasses.
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