Sox have 2 of Jonah Keri's Worst 15 Contracts in baseball

[kittle42]

Originally Posted by chicagowhitesox1

I read an article a few months ago about how Buerhle has a shot at the Hall of Fame. Seems like a longshot but he has put up consistent numbers even when he ends up going 13-13.

Highly unlikely per baseball-reference.com's indicators:

http://www.baseball-reference.com/pl...uehrma01.shtml

[DeadMoney]

Originally Posted by chicagowhitesox1

I read an article a few months ago about how Buerhle has a shot at the Hall of Fame. Seems like a longshot but he has put up consistent numbers even when he ends up going 13-13. It's pretty amazing how he's still pretty young and is already at 48.9 career war. A pitcher who reaches a 60.0 war is usually a lock for the Hall of Fame. Buerhle is a interesting case because he's never put up a lights out type of season just consistent seasons so he may get overlooked when it's time for his hof chances.

Roy Halladay 63.6 war, age 36...He's a lock for hof.
Tim Hudson 51.1 war, age 37...age is catching up to him.
CC Sabathia 51.0 war age 32....He's probably going to make the hof.
Mark Buerhle 48.9 war age 34
Johan Santana 48.6 war age 34.....I think Buerhle will be better in the next 3-4 years.
Roy Oswalt 48.5 war age 35....I can't see him ever being very good again.

IMO, Buehrle can hang out with Billy Pierce in the Hall of Damn Good, since both will just miss the Hall of Fame. In fact, in a few years you'll probably be able to replace Pierce's name with Buehrle's in a piece like this and it'll still fit (interestingly enough, both guys have an ERA+ of 119).

[SephClone89]

Originally Posted by DeadMoney

IMO, Buehrle can hang out with Billy Pierce in the Hall of Damn Good, since both will just miss the Hall of Fame. In fact, in a few years you'll probably be able to replace Pierce's name with Buehrle's in a piece like this and it'll still fit (interestingly enough, both guys have an ERA+ of 119).

The difference is that Pierce was an elite AL pitcher in his prime. Buehrle, for as great as his career has been, was never really that.

[Lip Man 1]

Dead:

At various times in the 1950's, Billy led the American League in the following categories:

Wins
ERA
Strikeouts
Complete Games

Threw four one hitters, made seven All Star selections, started three All Star Games. Two time Sporting News pitcher of the year.

Mark is a very good consistent pitcher, but he's no Billy Pierce...who should be in the Hall of Fame.

Lip

[TheVulture]

Originally Posted by Lip Man 1

Dead:

At various times in the 1950's, Billy led the American League in the following categories:

Wins
ERA
Strikeouts
Complete Games

Threw four one hitters, made seven All Star selections, started three All Star Games. Two time Sporting News pitcher of the year.

Mark is a very good consistent pitcher, but he's no Billy Pierce...who should be in the Hall of Fame.

Lip

The only thing separating Pierce and Buehrle is Pierce's 1955 season. Sure, Pierce's 1952 season, for example, looks better to the naked eye with a 2.57 ERA, but let's consider the era. That resulted in an era+ of 142, comparable to Buehrle's 2005 season when he had a 147 era+ despite an ERA more than half a run higher. Pierce's 1958 season with a 2.68 ERA compares to Buehrle's 2000 - 140 for Buehrle and 137 for Pierce. Buehrle has had nine 120 era+ season vs. only six for Pierce. Buehrle has nothing comparable to Pierce's 1955 season though.

[chicagowhitesox1]

Originally Posted by kittle42

Highly unlikely per baseball-reference.com's indicators:

http://www.baseball-reference.com/pl...uehrma01.shtml

If he has 3 or 4 more seasons with 3.2 war, I think voters will end up looking at him alot different and realize he's comparable to other hofers especially since voters of the future will be younger saber stat lovers.

[chicagowhitesox1]

Originally Posted by DeadMoney

IMO, Buehrle can hang out with Billy Pierce in the Hall of Damn Good, since both will just miss the Hall of Fame. In fact, in a few years you'll probably be able to replace Pierce's name with Buehrle's in a piece like this and it'll still fit (interestingly enough, both guys have an ERA+ of 119).

It's strange how Billy Pierce was just as good as Whitey Ford and Mark Buerhle is just as good as Andy Pettite.

[doublem23]

Originally Posted by chicagowhitesox1

If he has 3 or 4 more seasons with 3.2 war, I think voters will end up looking at him alot different and realize he's comparable to other hofers especially since voters of the future will be younger saber stat lovers.

Buehrle's not going to be eligible in the 2050's, I would suspect most of BBWAA's membership will still be the same dimwits that are there now, not that it matters as Buehrle is not really a sabermetrician's dream, anyway... He gives up a lot of hits and doesn't strike anybody out.

I sincerely doubt Buehrle will ever make the HOF, but probably the only thing he really has going for him is that he's never been suspected of 'roiding.

[chicagowhitesox1]

Originally Posted by doublem23

Buehrle's not going to be eligible in the 2050's, I would suspect most of BBWAA's membership will still be the same dimwits that are there now, not that it matters as Buehrle is not really a sabermetrician's dream, anyway... He gives up a lot of hits and doesn't strike anybody out.

I sincerely doubt Buehrle will ever make the HOF, but probably the only thing he really has going for him is that he's never been suspected of 'roiding.

In my opinion it's already starting to change, ten years ago there would be no way a pitcher with a 13-12 record could win a Cy Young but Felix Hernandez won it a few years ago with a 13-12 record. Blyleven had no chance of getting in 10-15 years ago but the saber lovers made a good argument helping him finally get in. 10-15 years in the future will more tha likely be even more saber heavy.

[kittle42]

Originally Posted by chicagowhitesox1

In my opinion it's already starting to change, ten years ago there would be no way a pitcher with a 13-12 record could win a Cy Young but Felix Hernandez won it a few years ago with a 13-12 record. Blyleven had no chance of getting in 10-15 years ago but the saber lovers made a good argument helping him finally get in. 10-15 years in the future will more tha likely be even more saber heavy.

But, as explained, Buehrle is really not that much of a saber guy. Set aside wins completely, and his numbers still don't come close.

I think that if you mentioned to a fan of any other team in the majors that you thought Mark Buehrle could be a HOF guy, they'd think you were crazy.

[doublem23]

Originally Posted by chicagowhitesox1

In my opinion it's already starting to change, ten years ago there would be no way a pitcher with a 13-12 record could win a Cy Young but Felix Hernandez won it a few years ago with a 13-12 record. Blyleven had no chance of getting in 10-15 years ago but the saber lovers made a good argument helping him finally get in. 10-15 years in the future will more tha likely be even more saber heavy.

Right, and that's all good, but you're apparently mistaking the fact that sabermetric folk don't much care for W-L record with the notion that sabermetric folk value having an average W-L record. Felix didn't win the Cy Young because they looked at his record and were like, "13-12? HIT THAT ****!" They genuinely didn't care what his record was because his supporting numbers were so dominant, your brain would have to be filled with rotting cheese to have voted for someone else. Similarly with Blyleven, it wasn't that they came around and creamed their pants over his +37 W-L record, it's that they came around to their senses and noted, ****, this guy that has the 5th most strikeouts of all time and 12th best WAR for P probably should be in the Hall of Fame regardless of this random number that is highly influenced by his teammates when he's either A) not on the mound or B) already pulled from the game and essentially is a completely worthless metric for pitcher evaluation. None of these would help Buehrle, whose volume of work just isn't remarkable outside of his durability.

Also, before we get to far ahead of ourselves in the Saber vs. Traditionalist War, remember the BBWAA gave the AL MVP last season to Miguel Cabrera despite the fact it's essentially impossible to show he had a better season than Mike Trout, other than leading the league in 3 offensive categories, 2 of which are basically useless unless you've been holding your fingers in your ears and singing during the last 20 or so years of baseball research.

[chicagowhitesox1]

I agree with both posts mentioned above. I guess I find it interesting how Buerhle will be viewed if he does end up with 4 more decent seasons. I never thought of him as a hofer but he might have a good argument someday. I would have to think that the 2005 team would have at least one player who gets in. (excluding Frank Thomas because he wasn't on the WS roster) But who else would it be? I would like to think Konerko gets in but he's probably gonna get dinged for being a firstbasemen. Mark Buerhle might get points for being a member of that team which won Chicagos first WS in 87 years.

Sorry I kinda went off course on this.

[Brian26]

Originally Posted by chicagowhitesox1

I would have to think that the 2005 team would have at least one player who gets in.

Not necessarily. Konerko and Buehrle have slim chances, but really there's nobody else on the team that is worthy.

That's what made the 05 White Sox a great team...one of the greatest ever. They were much greater than the sum of their individual parts that season.

[DSpivack]

Originally Posted by chicagowhitesox1

I agree with both posts mentioned above. I guess I find it interesting how Buerhle will be viewed if he does end up with 4 more decent seasons. I never thought of him as a hofer but he might have a good argument someday. I would have to think that the 2005 team would have at least one player who gets in. (excluding Frank Thomas because he wasn't on the WS roster) But who else would it be? I would like to think Konerko gets in but he's probably gonna get dinged for being a firstbasemen. Mark Buerhle might get points for being a member of that team which won Chicagos first WS in 87 years.

Sorry I kinda went off course on this.

Originally Posted by Brian26

Not necessarily. Konerko and Buehrle have slim chances, but really there's nobody else on the team that is worthy.

That's what made the 05 White Sox a great team...one of the greatest ever. They were much greater than the sum of their individual parts that season.

Big Frank may not have been able to play in the playoffs, but he did carry the offense in June, ending up with 12 HRs.

[Brian26]

Originally Posted by DSpivack

Big Frank may not have been able to play in the playoffs, but he did carry the offense in June, ending up with 12 HRs.

Frank's an automatic HOFer, and you're correct about his superhuman June.