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  #106  
Old 04-10-2013, 12:17 PM
RKMeibalane RKMeibalane is offline
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Originally Posted by doublem23 View Post
Well, you know, I don't think playing Wise everyday in LF and calling up Little Danks to be the 4th outfield is going to magically find the Sox another handful of wins they wouldn't have gotten with Viciedo in LF. if you go on last year's WAR, the Sox would have finished what? 86-76 instead of 85-77. Hardly seems worthy of casting away a 24-year-old whom you've invested $13 million in his development
This is exactly the point I was making earlier. Viciedo may not be what all of us are hoping for, but finding a suitable replacement isn't as easy as some appear to believe.

Wise has been in professional baseball in some capacity since 1997, and he has never proven that he can play every day: on the contrary, he's bounced from roster to roster, having had tours with the Reds, Blue Jays (twice), Yankees, Marlins, and White Sox (twice). That he's been given so many chances suggests that he has at least some baseball ability, but one would think that he'd have landed a better gig than utility outfielder by now. Why hasn't he? Perhaps because he's not capable of handling that much responsibility. That's not to say that Viciedo is, but one has nothing to do with the other, beyond the fact that they're currently occupying the same Major League roster.
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  #107  
Old 04-10-2013, 01:16 PM
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JB98 JB98 is offline
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I'm sure this is true of all fan bases to some extent, but it seems to be especially true of Sox fans: We criticize the organization for failing to produce young talent, while at the same time we aren't willing to tolerate the growing pains of young players trying to find their way at the major league level.

I don't know yet whether Viciedo is a long-term answer for the Sox. I need more information. Let's give him 500 ABs this year, then see how it looks at the end of the season. Maybe he'll make strides this season. Maybe he won't.

I do know there is only one way to learn how to hit major league pitching. You do that by facing major league pitching.
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  #108  
Old 04-10-2013, 01:29 PM
dickallen15 dickallen15 is offline
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Originally Posted by blandman View Post
That he doesn't deserve an opportunity is EXACTLY what scouts have said. He hasn't shown anything in the minors that warranted his promotion to a starting role. It played out last year too. He had a negative WAR. That means on offense, a bench player could reasonably be expected to outperform him. People are such fouls for the long ball.

How many organizations would have started (and kept starting) a guy like Viciedo in the middle of a pennant race? He's starting because our system is barren and we've spent a ton of money on him. Not because of anything he's shown in his career thus far.
Looking at fangraphs, Viciedo's WAR last year wasn't negative, it was 0.3. Baseball-Reference had it at 0.9. Carlos Lee, someone I think Viciedo seems to be very similar, posted a .8 WAR his age 23 season, with an even lower walk rate. Guys do get better occassionally. Judging a young Cuban after 6 games this year, in cold weather, is silly.
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  #109  
Old 04-10-2013, 02:06 PM
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Originally Posted by JB98 View Post
I'm sure this is true of all fan bases to some extent, but it seems to be especially true of Sox fans: We criticize the organization for failing to produce young talent, while at the same time we aren't willing to tolerate the growing pains of young players trying to find their way at the major league level.
I wonder if it is because most other teams go through more traditional boom and bust years, so they collect a ton of young talent that advances to the Majors kind of together, they all stink together while they learn the Majors together but then grow together. Whereas the Sox, who are constantly "reloading" without "rebuilding" always seem to be 1-2 players short of a truly exceptional team, so when a 23-year-old LF has a less than amazing season on a team that finished 3 games out of a play-off spot, that seems to stick out a little more. And, of course, when that 23-year-old LF matures a few years and is ready to be more of a centerpiece of the offense, the Sox are plugging a hole somewhere else in the lineup with a young kid whose not quite ready to contribute at the MLB level. So they stay stuck at the 85-win plateau in Baseball Hell.

Of course, the Sox also haven't really had a worthwhile collection of MiLB prospects since 2000.
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  #110  
Old 04-10-2013, 02:33 PM
RKMeibalane RKMeibalane is offline
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Originally Posted by dickallen15 View Post
Judging a young Cuban after 6 games this year, in cold weather, is silly.
Didn't someone get into trouble for saying something like this? I don't mean on this message board, but within Major League Baseball. Someone said something about a particular ethnic group having difficulty with day baseball at Wrigley Field, or something to that effect, and was harshly criticized.



"I was harshly criticized for things I said."



"That's because most of what you said was stupid."
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  #111  
Old 04-10-2013, 02:47 PM
RKMeibalane RKMeibalane is offline
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Originally Posted by doublem23 View Post
Of course, the Sox also haven't really had a worthwhile collection of MiLB prospects since 2000.
And they still don't, at least not at higher levels of their organization. Courtney Hawkins won't be ready for the Major League level for a while, and Keon Barnum is trying to work his way back from a shoulder injury that cost him the majority of his first professional season. He's sidelined for the first four weeks of the minor league season due to an injury suffered in early March. These two young men are the prospects I've heard the most about, and each was drafted only last summer, so it's not clear what either will become.

To add to your earlier point, I also think that this group of fans is frustrated by the number of prospects who haven't panned out as expected, even going back to the late-1990s. Mike Caruso had an excellent rookie season- while hitting directly in front of Frank Thomas- but struggled mightily after that. Mike Cameron was traded for Konerko, although that trade absolutely worked out for the best. James Baldwin? Mike Sirotka? Greg Norton? Chris Singleton?

Jon Garland was an important piece of the rotation, but never became the ace that many hoped he would be. Joe Crede couldn't stay healthy. Aaron Rowand was treated like God on this message board, but never played at God's level. Danny Wright was rarely right. Jon Rauch is remembered more for his leaving a game early. Joe Borchard was a joke. Jeremy Reed and Miguel Olivo were worshiped by a former WSI poster, but did nothing to justify it. Carlos Lee had several good seasons for the Sox, as did Magglio Ordonez, but only they and Paul Konerko came close to meeting their potential.
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  #112  
Old 04-10-2013, 02:51 PM
dickallen15 dickallen15 is offline
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Originally Posted by RKMeibalane View Post
Didn't someone get into trouble for saying something like this? I don't mean on this message board, but within Major League Baseball. Someone said something about a particular ethnic group having difficulty with day baseball at Wrigley Field, or something to that effect, and was harshly criticized.



"I was harshly criticized for things I said."



"That's because most of what you said was stupid."
My point was this guy and most Cubans haven't played very much in 35-40 degree weather. Much like dome football teams for years couldn't win in cold weather.
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  #113  
Old 04-10-2013, 02:59 PM
RKMeibalane RKMeibalane is offline
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Originally Posted by dickallen15 View Post
My point was this guy and most Cubans haven't played very much in 35-40 degree weather. Much like dome football teams for years couldn't win in cold weather.
I understand the point. I'm just remembering similar comments that landed someone in hot water, although I can't remember who it was.
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  #114  
Old 04-10-2013, 03:05 PM
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Judging any ball player after 6 games in mostly cold weather is stupid
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  #115  
Old 04-10-2013, 03:13 PM
dickallen15 dickallen15 is offline
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Originally Posted by doublem23 View Post
Judging any ball player after 6 games in mostly cold weather is stupid
It's done in October every year, but it seems that a conclusion that Viciedo hasn't improved is already being made by a couple of people. They could be correct, but it's pretty ridiculous to come to that conclusion on April 10th.
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  #116  
Old 04-10-2013, 03:14 PM
amsteel amsteel is offline
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Originally Posted by RKMeibalane View Post
Didn't someone get into trouble for saying something like this? I don't mean on this message board, but within Major League Baseball.
Dusty Baker.
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  #117  
Old 04-10-2013, 03:22 PM
RKMeibalane RKMeibalane is offline
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Originally Posted by dickallen15 View Post
It's done in October every year, but it seems that a conclusion that Viciedo hasn't improved is already being made by a couple of people. They could be correct, but it's pretty ridiculous to come to that conclusion on April 10th.
Completely agree, but that won't stop them from subjecting this board to their verbal histrionics.
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  #118  
Old 04-10-2013, 03:28 PM
SI1020 SI1020 is online now
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Originally Posted by RKMeibalane View Post
Completely agree, but that won't stop them from subjecting this board to their verbal histrionics.
Don't I know it.
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  #119  
Old 04-10-2013, 10:03 PM
blandman blandman is offline
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Originally Posted by dickallen15 View Post
Looking at fangraphs, Viciedo's WAR last year wasn't negative, it was 0.3. Baseball-Reference had it at 0.9. Carlos Lee, someone I think Viciedo seems to be very similar, posted a .8 WAR his age 23 season, with an even lower walk rate. Guys do get better occassionally. Judging a young Cuban after 6 games this year, in cold weather, is silly.
I don't why two sites have two different numbers, but when I'm pulling it up, I'm still getting negative 1.1...
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  #120  
Old 04-10-2013, 11:48 PM
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doublem23 doublem23 is offline
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I don't why two sites have two different numbers, but when I'm pulling it up, I'm still getting negative 1.1...
Different places calculate WAR differently, it probably just depends on which site you're looking at, but yeah, according to www.baseball-reference.com, in 2012 Dayan had a 0.8 oWAR, -0.5 dWAR, and a total WAR of 0.9.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/pl...ng_value::none
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