White Sox Interactive Forums
Talking Baseball

Welcome
Go Back   White Sox Interactive Forums > Baseball Discussions > Talking Baseball
Home Chat Stats Register Blogs FAQ Calendar Mark Forums Read


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #226  
Old 04-12-2013, 10:59 PM
WhiteSox5187 WhiteSox5187 is offline
WSI Prelate
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Southside
Posts: 14,365
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by RKMeibalane View Post
The instinctive response is to raise one's hands in front of the face and upper-body. I just had my girlfriend run toward me with her fists up to test the idea. Before I even realized what I'd done, my hands were in front of my face, and I'd gone to something resembling a basketball defensive crouch, with my feet aligned with my shoulders. Granted, I'm not a pitcher and have no throwing arm to protect, but what Greinke did makes absolutely no sense.
I think he was trying to get low enough to flip Quentin or tackle him like Farnsworth did to that guy from Cincinnati back in 2003, of course I think Farnsworth was a lot bigger than the guy charging him.
__________________

Go Sox!!!
Reply With Quote
  #227  
Old 04-12-2013, 11:01 PM
RKMeibalane RKMeibalane is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Madison, Wisconsin
Posts: 17,394
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by WhiteSox5187 View Post
This is really getting into minutia here, but I think the fact that Quentin took his first step towards the mound shows he was ready for a fight. Greinke did say something but based solely on his body language I don't think it was INTENDED to be confrontational. I also doubt that it was intended to be apologetic either.
Oh, I agree completely that Quentin was ready for a fight, but there's a difference (albeit a small one) between being ready to fight and actually going through with it. Having said that, I also think Quentin has anger management issues and eventually would have snapped regardless of who was pitching.
Reply With Quote
  #228  
Old 04-12-2013, 11:01 PM
RKMeibalane RKMeibalane is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Madison, Wisconsin
Posts: 17,394
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by WhiteSox5187 View Post
I think he was trying to get low enough to flip Quentin or tackle him like Farnsworth did to that guy from Cincinnati back in 2003, of course I think Farnsworth was a lot bigger than the guy charging him.
Paul Wilson, if I remember correctly, formerly the number-one overall pick by the New York Mets.
Reply With Quote
  #229  
Old 04-12-2013, 11:04 PM
WhiteSox5187 WhiteSox5187 is offline
WSI Prelate
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Southside
Posts: 14,365
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by RKMeibalane View Post
Oh, I agree completely that Quentin was ready for a fight, but there's a difference (albeit a small one) between being ready to fight and actually going through with it. Having said that, I also think Quentin has anger management issues and eventually would have snapped regardless of who was pitching.
Yea, I think that Greinke (or anyone) could have said "Sorry that pitch got away from me, are you okay?" and he STILL would have charged the mound. I think after a batter takes something like two steps towards the mound they have crossed the point of no return, they are going to go to the mound unless the catcher tackles them first.
Reply With Quote
  #230  
Old 04-12-2013, 11:07 PM
voodoochile's Avatar
voodoochile voodoochile is offline
Soda Jerk/U.P.W./Lester Pooh Bear
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: San Jose, CA
Posts: 47,951
Blog Entries: 9
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by WhiteSox5187 View Post
Yea, I think that Greinke (or anyone) could have said "Sorry that pitch got away from me, are you okay?" and he STILL would have charged the mound. I think after a batter takes something like two steps towards the mound they have crossed the point of no return, they are going to go to the mound unless the catcher tackles them first.
First base is "on the way to the mound" at least roughly.
__________________

Riding shotgun on the Sox bandwagon since before there was an Internet...
Reply With Quote
  #231  
Old 04-12-2013, 11:09 PM
RKMeibalane RKMeibalane is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Madison, Wisconsin
Posts: 17,394
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by WhiteSox5187 View Post
Yea, I think that Greinke (or anyone) could have said "Sorry that pitch got away from me, are you okay?" and he STILL would have charged the mound. I think after a batter takes something like two steps towards the mound they have crossed the point of no return, they are going to go to the mound unless the catcher tackles them first.
I actually think that's what happened with Robin Ventura when he fought with Nolan Ryan. He was hit and made the decision to charge the mound, but realized when he got to the mound that he was about to hit Nolan Ryan and froze, leaving an opening for Ryan to wrap him up.
Reply With Quote
  #232  
Old 04-12-2013, 11:13 PM
WhiteSox5187 WhiteSox5187 is offline
WSI Prelate
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Southside
Posts: 14,365
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by voodoochile View Post
First base is "on the way to the mound" at least roughly.
If you're Tony Bautista maybe, but Quentin was in no way shape or form heading towards first when he got by that pitch.

Reply With Quote
  #233  
Old 04-12-2013, 11:13 PM
WhiteSox5187 WhiteSox5187 is offline
WSI Prelate
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Southside
Posts: 14,365
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by RKMeibalane View Post
I actually think that's what happened with Robin Ventura when he fought with Nolan Ryan. He was hit and made the decision to charge the mound, but realized when he got to the mound that he was about to hit Nolan Ryan and froze, leaving an opening for Ryan to wrap him up.
I think that that is exactly what happened, I think he has been quoted as saying that that is what happened.
Reply With Quote
  #234  
Old 04-12-2013, 11:17 PM
voodoochile's Avatar
voodoochile voodoochile is offline
Soda Jerk/U.P.W./Lester Pooh Bear
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: San Jose, CA
Posts: 47,951
Blog Entries: 9
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by WhiteSox5187 View Post
If you're Tony Bautista maybe, but Quentin was in no way shape or form heading towards first when he got by that pitch.
He also wasn't charging the mound until Greinke started mouthing off. And since you aren't TCQ your speculation about what he was going to do if Greinke had remained silent is kind of moot.
Reply With Quote
  #235  
Old 04-12-2013, 11:23 PM
WhiteSox5187 WhiteSox5187 is offline
WSI Prelate
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Southside
Posts: 14,365
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by voodoochile View Post
He also wasn't charging the mound until Greinke started mouthing off. And since you aren't TCQ your speculation about what he was going to do if Greinke had remained silent is kind of moot.
It is, but he was walking towards the mound before Greinke even looked at him. Walking towards the mound is an escalation right there, Quentin has been hit enough to know that. He also has been hit enough that he should know that a guy isn't going to be hitting him intentionally on a 3-2 count in the late innings with a runner on first and nobody out. Quentin started it, Greinke may or may not have escalated it by shouting something, but Quentin took the first step to escalate matters.
Reply With Quote
  #236  
Old 04-12-2013, 11:41 PM
voodoochile's Avatar
voodoochile voodoochile is offline
Soda Jerk/U.P.W./Lester Pooh Bear
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: San Jose, CA
Posts: 47,951
Blog Entries: 9
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by WhiteSox5187 View Post
It is, but he was walking towards the mound before Greinke even looked at him. Walking towards the mound is an escalation right there, Quentin has been hit enough to know that. He also has been hit enough that he should know that a guy isn't going to be hitting him intentionally on a 3-2 count in the late innings with a runner on first and nobody out. Quentin started it, Greinke may or may not have escalated it by shouting something, but Quentin took the first step to escalate matters.
Okay, so you at least admit Greinke shares some blame. That's all I really care about. The rest is deciding how much blame and that's not worth it to me.

My point all along is that to paint Greinke as purely a victim here is poor logic.
Reply With Quote
  #237  
Old 04-12-2013, 11:55 PM
WhiteSox5187 WhiteSox5187 is offline
WSI Prelate
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Southside
Posts: 14,365
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by voodoochile View Post
Okay, so you at least admit Greinke shares some blame. That's all I really care about. The rest is deciding how much blame and that's not worth it to me.

My point all along is that to paint Greinke as purely a victim here is poor logic.
I found a video from behind homeplate. Again you can see Quentin get hit and take his first step towards the mound at 38 seconds. Greinke is walking off the mound towards first base which is where he normally lands during his follow through. As Quentin is taking his first step towards Greinke, Greinke looks at Quentin - aware that Quentin is saying something to him and approaching him. It does appear to be "What" but based on his body language it does not appear that he is shouting or trolling. After this Quentin starts running towards the mound, Greinke appears to say something while he tosses his glove aside. The home plate view is about 36 seconds in.
http://espn.go.com/video/clip?id=916...goryid=2378529

An article on ESPN pointed out that usually a catcher or an umpire can tell when a pitch is intentional or at least could be perceived as such, and will get in between the hitter and the pitcher. In this case neither did that, Ellis in particular seems surprised.

I blame Greinke for throwing his glove aside and lowering his shoulder but the rest is on Quentin.
Reply With Quote
  #238  
Old 04-13-2013, 12:33 AM
doublem23's Avatar
doublem23 doublem23 is offline
MMXXIII
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Roscoe Village
Posts: 54,244
Blog Entries: 5
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by blandman View Post
What trash talk?

Greinke: I didn't say anything
Quentin: I didn't hear what he said

What trash talk? Even if he did trash talk (and saying What? is more like, why are you walking at me with a bat than anything), trash talk is irrelevant because 1.) Quentin didn't care what he said, obviously and 2.) no amount of trash talk is a legitimate reason for assaulting someone. People go to jail for that.


Good heavens

It must be so nice to live in such a black and white world where everything is crystal clear all of the time. Was Quentin at fault? Sure, that's why he's getting a relatively huge suspension. But to state that Greinke was an innocent bystander in all of this is absurd. And frankly, to equate a baseball brawl to ACTUAL, real life people who are hurt, injured, arrested, killed, etc. in REAL LIFE random acts of violence is frankly, a thousand times more classless and insulting than anything anyone has said to the way PLAYERS police their GAME in the contexts of that GAME. These are grown men playing a children's game. Pretending like there's any sort of connection between this and the real world the rest of us live in is just nonsense. Baseball's not real life, dude.
__________________

Last edited by doublem23; 04-13-2013 at 12:39 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #239  
Old 04-13-2013, 05:05 AM
getonbckthr getonbckthr is offline
WSI 2013 NFL Pick'em Contest Winner
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: I can smell TBK from my front porch
Posts: 13,308
Default

Something I noticed and will probably be paying more attention to in the future is look at the catcher and where he set up. He sets up low and outside ZG misses up and in. Thats a pretty big miss by ZG.
__________________

Joe Flacco Super Bowl 47 Champion and MVP
Joe Flacco First Rookie QB to win 2 games in his first playoff.
Reply With Quote
  #240  
Old 04-13-2013, 08:49 AM
DrCrawdad DrCrawdad is offline
WSI High Priest
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Valley Of The Malls
Posts: 7,594
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by doublem23 View Post


Good heavens

It must be so nice to live in such a black and white world where everything is crystal clear all of the time. Was Quentin at fault? Sure, that's why he's getting a relatively huge suspension. But to state that Greinke was an innocent bystander in all of this is absurd. And frankly, to equate a baseball brawl to ACTUAL, real life people who are hurt, injured, arrested, killed, etc. in REAL LIFE random acts of violence is frankly, a thousand times more classless and insulting than anything anyone has said to the way PLAYERS police their GAME in the contexts of that GAME. These are grown men playing a children's game. Pretending like there's any sort of connection between this and the real world the rest of us live in is just nonsense. Baseball's not real life, dude.
Thank you!
__________________

DrCrawdad
"In time you can turn these obsessions into careers...Hurry Down Doomsday the bugs are taking over." - Elvis Costello
Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



Forum Jump




All times are GMT -5. The time now is 10:34 PM.




Design by: Michelle

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Site-specific editorial/photos Copyright ©2001 - 2008 White Sox Interactive. All rights reserved.