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  #46  
Old 05-29-2013, 01:42 PM
kittle42 kittle42 is offline
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Originally Posted by doublem23 View Post
I know it sucks right now and I'm not telling people that they have to think like I do or even think I'm not completely crazy, but there's going to be a lot of roster turnover around here in the next few years and hopefully the Sox will still have the pitching that it won't be as painful a rebirth as some think it will be.
Can't wait for the Facebook posts about how people are abandoning the team when Konerko is traded.
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  #47  
Old 05-29-2013, 01:44 PM
StillMissOzzie StillMissOzzie is offline
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I called the post game show last night and pointed out that Phegley is hitting over .300 in the Minor Leagues. Flowers isn't hitting his weight here in Chicago. I asked why not bring him up now? Rongey said the White Sox didn't want to bring up a catcher at this time because the pitchers are familar with and like the catchers the White Sox have now. All I know is that this year the White Sox have 5 guys who are not hitting.( Dunn, Konerko, Flowers, DeAza and Keppinger) There are too many outs in this lineup and this 2013 season is going down the tubes because of it. You have a guy at Triple AAA who is hitting the daylights out of the ball. You simply bring him up. The only thing I can figure is that the White Sox organization don't have a high opinion of Phegley. This offense is so bad that when the team is losing by a couple of runs you get the impression that the team won't come back and win the game.
One possible translation: Phegley won't get called up until such time as it doesn't speed up arbitration dligibility. At which time, they can declare the Flowers experiment a flop.

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  #48  
Old 05-29-2013, 01:46 PM
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doublem23 doublem23 is offline
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Originally Posted by Lip Man 1 View Post
I guess some folks are satisfied averaging 84 wins since 2001 with two post season appearances...so be it. They are certainly entitled to that opinion.
I hope you realize how ridiculous this looks. First off, there's a CANYON between "being satisfied" and not thinking the team is heading underwater for the next 5 years. It's possible to be disappointed in the way they've played so far this season and not think the whole thing needs to be blown up and rebuilt from the ground up a la what the Cubs are doing.

Second, I would be willing to bet that AT LEAST 15 if not 20 other MLB fan bases would swap places with us for the past decade if given the chance. The Yankees, Giants, Red Sox, Cardinals, Angels, and arguably Tigers, Rangers, and maybe the Braves are the only teams that have definitely had a better 2001-present. Let's not get too overly dramatic here. It's not like we're Pirates fans.
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  #49  
Old 05-29-2013, 01:49 PM
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JB98 JB98 is offline
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Originally Posted by Lip Man 1 View Post
Careful JB or Taylor will think you've joined the doom and gloom committee!

I guess some folks are satisfied averaging 84 wins since 2001 with two post season appearances...so be it. They are certainly entitled to that opinion.

Lip
I wish we had a little more reason for optimism around here. The organization definitely faces an uncertain future. I think some people are a little too filled with despair, resigning themselves to the fate of the Sox sucking from now until 2018. I don't buy that because, like I said, they seem to know how to acquire and develop pitching. That will keep you competitive most of the time.

I feel like where they are now is the opposite of the Jerry Manuel Era. During the early 2000s, they had some pretty damn good hitting talent. Thomas, even on the backside of his career, was very, very good. Ordonez, Lee and Konerko were just beginning what would prove to be fine major-league careers. Valentin had some productive years. Durham was a decent hitter. They just couldn't get it going with the pitching, so they were stuck in that 80- to 85-win zone.

Right now, they've got some good pitchers. Sale is a true ace. Peavy, at minimum, is a solid 2. He'd be an ace on some clubs. We'll see about Danks, but he has a track record of being a good mid-rotation starter. Quintana is solid at the back end. Santiago is useful. Reed appears to be coming into his own as a closer. You've got pitching here, but you don't have much offense. So, you run the risk of being stuck in that 80- to 85-win zone, just for the opposite reason from what we saw 10 or 12 years ago.
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  #50  
Old 05-29-2013, 02:02 PM
DSpivack DSpivack is offline
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Originally Posted by JB98 View Post
I wish we had a little more reason for optimism around here. The organization definitely faces an uncertain future. I think some people are a little too filled with despair, resigning themselves to the fate of the Sox sucking from now until 2018. I don't buy that because, like I said, they seem to know how to acquire and develop pitching. That will keep you competitive most of the time.

I feel like where they are now is the opposite of the Jerry Manuel Era. During the early 2000s, they had some pretty damn good hitting talent. Thomas, even on the backside of his career, was very, very good. Ordonez, Lee and Konerko were just beginning what would prove to be fine major-league careers. Valentin had some productive years. Durham was a decent hitter. They just couldn't get it going with the pitching, so they were stuck in that 80- to 85-win zone.

Right now, they've got some good pitchers. Sale is a true ace. Peavy, at minimum, is a solid 2. He'd be an ace on some clubs. We'll see about Danks, but he has a track record of being a good mid-rotation starter. Quintana is solid at the back end. Santiago is useful. Reed appears to be coming into his own as a closer. You've got pitching here, but you don't have much offense. So, you run the risk of being stuck in that 80- to 85-win zone, just for the opposite reason from what we saw 10 or 12 years ago.
The above might also be reflective of MLB in general, as the game has gone from the high-scoring heights of the peak of the steroid era, to a more pitching-dominant game today.

I do not want to see the Sox blow it up to suck for draft picks until 2018, I just want to see the few trade chips they do have used to gather young position talent that they so desperately need.
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  #51  
Old 05-29-2013, 02:16 PM
Lip Man 1 Lip Man 1 is offline
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Originally Posted by doublem23 View Post
I hope you realize how ridiculous this looks. First off, there's a CANYON between "being satisfied" and not thinking the team is heading underwater for the next 5 years. It's possible to be disappointed in the way they've played so far this season and not think the whole thing needs to be blown up and rebuilt from the ground up a la what the Cubs are doing.

Second, I would be willing to bet that AT LEAST 15 if not 20 other MLB fan bases would swap places with us for the past decade if given the chance. The Yankees, Giants, Red Sox, Cardinals, Angels, and arguably Tigers, Rangers, and maybe the Braves are the only teams that have definitely had a better 2001-present. Let's not get too overly dramatic here. It's not like we're Pirates fans.
Double:

I agree and was going to make that point had it been brought up. I do feel though given the advantages the Sox have compared to the other teams in what everyone, including yourself, say is at best, a mediocre division by far most seasons, that somehow, someway they would have figured it out and dominated for even as little as three years in a row. I mean Cleveland did in the 90's...Minnesota in the 00's.

I'm not putting down averaging 84 wins in any way shape or form, it's not easy to have a winning season in MLB. You're right, just ask the Pirates, ask the Orioles until last year or the A's with their "genius" G.M. who had what? Four or five straight losing seasons before last year.

In fact having a winning season is my ultimate bottom line when looking back on the year, at least I have that to hang my hat on and the Sox organization deserves to be congratulated on that fact.

Since 1990 they've played 23 seasons. The Sox have had 15 winning seasons, one .500 season and seven losing ones. That is noteworthy. (Now one can make the case that the arrow is pointed downwards since they haven't had back to back winning seasons since 05-06 and have had three of those seven losing seasons in the past six completed seasons...)

But like you brought up last month or six weeks ago whenever it was, 84 wins really isn't doing much. It won't get you into the post season crapshoot and it won't excite the fan base.

I wish I had the answer, I don't...but I'm also not getting paid to figure it out either.

Lip
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  #52  
Old 05-29-2013, 02:27 PM
SoxSpeed22 SoxSpeed22 is offline
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I also have faith in our ability to develop pitchers. Erik Johnson and Scott Snodgress will likely contribute a few years from now. They had rookies come in and be successful last year. Quintana and Reed have kept it going. Santiago has been important for keeping this staff together. Axelrod has been serviceable, we can certainly do worse. Jones needs to figure something out.
For position players, that's a different story that I don't have the answer to either.
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  #53  
Old 05-29-2013, 02:49 PM
SCCWS SCCWS is offline
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Originally Posted by DSpivack View Post
The above might also be reflective of MLB in general, as the game has gone from the high-scoring heights of the peak of the steroid era, to a more pitching-dominant game today.

I do not want to see the Sox blow it up to suck for draft picks until 2018, I just want to see the few trade chips they do have used to gather young position talent that they so desperately need.
You omit free agent signings. At this point, if the farm system is depleted, it will be 2018 before 2013 and 2014 draft choices are MLB ready. So they also have to sign some free agents while they build a farm system. Not necessarily the big names but guys who can come in and fill holes. Hopefully one or more of Viciedo, Beckham or Gillaspie will turn into a quality MLB player.
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  #54  
Old 05-29-2013, 02:56 PM
DSpivack DSpivack is offline
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You omit free agent signings. At this point, if the farm system is depleted, it will be 2018 before 2013 and 2014 draft choices are MLB ready. So they also have to sign some free agents while they build a farm system. Not necessarily the big names but guys who can come in and fill holes. Hopefully one or more of Viciedo, Beckham or Gillaspie will turn into a quality MLB player.
Free agency looks pretty bare this coming offseason. And it seems like as teams are locking up their young talent, the quality of available free agents is declining with each successive offseason.

That said, you're right, there is no reason why the Sox couldn't necessarily find some stopgap solutions that are league-average in free agency. Only problem there is in signing the right players. I thought Keppinger fit that bill, but he has not looked good thus far.
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  #55  
Old 05-29-2013, 04:04 PM
SCCWS SCCWS is offline
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Free agency looks pretty bare this coming offseason. And it seems like as teams are locking up their young talent, the quality of available free agents is declining with each successive offseason.

That said, you're right, there is no reason why the Sox couldn't necessarily find some stopgap solutions that are league-average in free agency. Only problem there is in signing the right players. I thought Keppinger fit that bill, but he has not looked good thus far.
Cubs will probably sign Ellsbury according to New England media. Now I thought he would solve many problems ( center-speed-leadoff hitter) for White Sox but now he is questionable after a down stretch going back to last year---also a Boras guy.
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  #56  
Old 05-29-2013, 05:22 PM
DSpivack DSpivack is offline
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Cubs will probably sign Ellsbury according to New England media. Now I thought he would solve many problems ( center-speed-leadoff hitter) for White Sox but now he is questionable after a down stretch going back to last year---also a Boras guy.
His season last year plus his start this year don't look a lot different from De Aza. Color me unimpressed.
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  #57  
Old 05-30-2013, 01:58 PM
SCCWS SCCWS is offline
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His season last year plus his start this year don't look a lot different from De Aza. Color me unimpressed.
Much different as a leadoff hitter despite his average being down. He is hitting .260 after coming back from an injury and has stolen 16 bases already. But his average has jumped from .240 to .260 in a few weeks. He is a career .290 hitter whocan steal 50 bases a year. Has much better BB/SO ratio than DeAza and is a better defender.
But he is a Boras guy and seems to be headed to the Cubbies. But I would love to see him in a White Sox uniform. Remember he was a key component in the Buehrle to Boston trade that fell through a few years back.
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  #58  
Old 05-30-2013, 02:14 PM
DSpivack DSpivack is offline
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Much different as a leadoff hitter despite his average being down. He is hitting .260 after coming back from an injury and has stolen 16 bases already. But his average has jumped from .240 to .260 in a few weeks. He is a career .290 hitter whocan steal 50 bases a year. Has much better BB/SO ratio than DeAza and is a better defender.
But he is a Boras guy and seems to be headed to the Cubbies. But I would love to see him in a White Sox uniform. Remember he was a key component in the Buehrle to Boston trade that fell through a few years back.
I would just be very wary of giving a guy like that a big long-term contract going into his thirties. The last two seasons he has hit .266/.318/.368, though he has been dealing with some injuries.
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  #59  
Old 05-30-2013, 02:50 PM
SCCWS SCCWS is offline
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I would just be very wary of giving a guy like that a big long-term contract going into his thirties. The last two seasons he has hit .266/.318/.368, though he has been dealing with some injuries.
Rumor is that it probably won't be long-term but a 1 year. I guess that is a Boras ploy when a guy has an off year. Now if Ellsbury has a productive year, then they will want the long term.
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  #60  
Old 05-30-2013, 03:06 PM
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Rumor is that it probably won't be long-term but a 1 year. I guess that is a Boras ploy when a guy has an off year. Now if Ellsbury has a productive year, then they will want the long term.
Can't blame a guy for that, can you? Plus, it's good for the team, right? If you're going to sign a high-risk/high-reward guy, you want a 1-year-deal, right?
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