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  #136  
Old 06-23-2013, 06:27 PM
blandman blandman is offline
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Originally Posted by Tragg View Post
They don't have to replace 9. Probably 5 (c, 1B, 3B, DH, RF). We replaced 4 to start 2005 and 5 for most of 2005. WE also replaced closer (twice) and set-up man. I know there was a once-in-a-generation synergy involved in 2005's championship team, but when you have some pitching foundation, it's a lot, lot, lot easier to retool. And the team did win 90 games the following year.
I think people undervalue Santiago and Quintana.
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Originally Posted by Frater Perdurabo View Post
I'm with you. The pitching is fine. Don't fix what isn't broken. And not all position players need to be replaced, either.

We can be competitive in 2015 while simultaneously drafting and developing better.
This is exactly the kind of thinking that caused our current situation.

You guys are suggesting we continue to polish a turd. We've been a turd for years, just adding a few pieces here and there. But more and more, no matter what you throw at it, the **** starts to really stink.

This team reeks. At it's core. No amount of polishing is going to stop it from reeking. It needs to be rebuilt. That can't be done in free agency. That can't be done in trades (given we have nothing in the system to do that with). If we add four-five players, it's going to be another polish job. You can't be serious about turning this around if you're giving in to the illusion that we're not a ****ty smelling turd that cannot possible hope to compete.
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  #137  
Old 06-23-2013, 07:14 PM
Frater Perdurabo Frater Perdurabo is offline
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Originally Posted by blandman View Post
This is exactly the kind of thinking that caused our current situation.

You guys are suggesting we continue to polish a turd. We've been a turd for years, just adding a few pieces here and there. But more and more, no matter what you throw at it, the **** starts to really stink.

This team reeks. At it's core. No amount of polishing is going to stop it from reeking. It needs to be rebuilt. That can't be done in free agency. That can't be done in trades (given we have nothing in the system to do that with). If we add four-five players, it's going to be another polish job. You can't be serious about turning this around if you're giving in to the illusion that we're not a ****ty smelling turd that cannot possible hope to compete.
Position players as a whole are a turd. Pitching is fine, and would be even better with better fielding.

Flush the turd. Don't fix what isn't broken. Sometimes a five-year plan isn't necessary; sometimes it can be fixed in 2-3 years. I think this is the case, especially in this division.
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  #138  
Old 06-23-2013, 07:47 PM
Tragg Tragg is offline
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Originally Posted by Frater Perdurabo View Post
Position players as a whole are a turd. Pitching is fine, and would be even better with better fielding.

Flush the turd. Don't fix what isn't broken. Sometimes a five-year plan isn't necessary; sometimes it can be fixed in 2-3 years. I think this is the case, especially in this division.
I agree but at the same time, we need to get talent into the farm system. No trading for past their prime veterans.
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  #139  
Old 06-23-2013, 08:05 PM
blandman blandman is offline
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Originally Posted by Frater Perdurabo View Post
Position players as a whole are a turd. Pitching is fine, and would be even better with better fielding.

Flush the turd. Don't fix what isn't broken. Sometimes a five-year plan isn't necessary; sometimes it can be fixed in 2-3 years. I think this is the case, especially in this division.
This team isn't 2-3 years away. Acquiring five players that will be stars in that timeframe is not realistic. And yes, they have to be stars if you're going to throw the same crap out there at the other four spots.

I don't share your optimism of the rotation. Obviously, I don't think Sale will hold up. I don't hold Quintana in any sort of high esteem. I appreciate what he's doing, but guys with decent control and bad pitches that get by with deception tend not to keep it up (as deception generally only works long term with guys that have good stuff). Santiago's upside is similarly 4-5-6 in the rotation. And there's not a lot starters down in our minors. Not any that'll be heading our rotation in 2-3 years.
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  #140  
Old 06-23-2013, 08:45 PM
Frater Perdurabo Frater Perdurabo is offline
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It is possible to acquire "replacement level" position players who play great defense and can execute fundamentals with the bat and the glove. This can become a "pitching and defense" team that can compete in 2015.

To get protptype 3-4-5 hitters, we need to draft them.
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  #141  
Old 06-23-2013, 09:18 PM
blandman blandman is offline
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Originally Posted by Frater Perdurabo View Post
It is possible to acquire "replacement level" position players who play great defense and can execute fundamentals with the bat and the glove. This can become a "pitching and defense" team that can compete in 2015.

To get prototype 3-4-5 hitters, we need to draft them.
Pitching and defense teams usually have good enough hitters though, at least at the key spots. And...significantly better pitching. After Sale, our next best starter ERA (not counting Peavy who is old and will be gone) is almost four. Remember, for that type of team, you don't just need a good rotation. You need a significantly better rotation than all other teams. Everyone would have to have a top 30 ERA in our league. We're not even close this year HAVING PEAVY, let alone in a few years. Don't believe the hype about us going into the season. We do not have a deep or good rotation. We have a bad rotation anchored by two good pitchers.

Everyone keeps saying "in our division" like the Tigers aren't there. The Tigers are the best team in the league and aren't going anywhere anytime soon. Rebuilding now seems great considering it may be five years before they allow a window.
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  #142  
Old 06-23-2013, 10:00 PM
WhiteSox5187 WhiteSox5187 is offline
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I think the reason you have to completely rebuild is that other than Sale, there aren't many pieces you can really build around. When the White Sox lost 90 games in 2007 some people were calling for a total rebuild but the White Sox still had some pieces that they could at least build around and plug in some gaps.

Right now they have Sale, that's about it. The pitching is okay but Peavy is old (and hurt) and I think the jury is still out on Quintana and Santiago (God only knows if Danks will ever recover). The White Sox don't have anyone that they can build around to compete in 2014 and even 2015 seems to be a bit unrealistic to me. Maybe with some good trades they can go out and get some young players that are capable of competing in 2015 but it would require really good scouting and even if we had the good scouting who do we have that teams would be willing to part with several prospects over? Rios maybe? Reed?

I think the White Sox need to bite the bullet and start rebuilding with an eye towards contending in 2016 however they need to be thinking contending to be the best team in the AL year in and year out, not "contending to win the AL Central."
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  #143  
Old 06-23-2013, 10:43 PM
Tragg Tragg is offline
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Originally Posted by WhiteSox5187 View Post
I think the reason you have to completely rebuild is that other than Sale, there aren't many pieces you can really build around. When the White Sox lost 90 games in 2007 some people were calling for a total rebuild but the White Sox still had some pieces that they could at least build around and plug in some gaps.

Right now they have Sale, that's about it. The pitching is okay but Peavy is old (and hurt) and I think the jury is still out on Quintana and Santiago (God only knows if Danks will ever recover).
I don't think the jury's in on Sale, Quintana, Santiago, Reed and Jones. Danks was never particularly good in the first place. He may belong in the pen - certainly a waste of his salary, but it's a sunk cost.
When you don't have to rebuild a staff, it's a lot easier.
That said, I don't want to use Peavy, Rios, etc. to acquire mediocre AAA prospects that are ML ready either.
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  #144  
Old 06-23-2013, 11:11 PM
Frater Perdurabo Frater Perdurabo is offline
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The Tigers aren't as good as some make them out to be.

They are winning divisions because they beat up on AL Central teams that beat themselves. If we stopped beating ourselves with our current roster, we would be neck-and-neck with them, just like 2012.

I realize, though, that certain players on our team have a predilection to making dumb mistakes (Flowers, DeAza, Alexei) and need to be changed out, because they don't produce enough offensively to overcome their dumb play and poor fundamentals. Others on our roster need to go because they are old and can no longer produce. Replace these players with fundamentally sound players, and we will compete again.

We will overcome the Tigers if/ when we have good pitching, play fundamentally sound baseball with good fielding, and draft/develop our own core of 3-4-5 hitters.

We have good pitching. We can get the second part over two offseasons. The third part requires shrewd drafting and top-notch player development.
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  #145  
Old 06-23-2013, 11:20 PM
gosox41 gosox41 is offline
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Originally Posted by SCCWS View Post
You forgot the package of prospects. The original point was getting a package like Tampa got for Shields. So Sale burns his arm out in 2014 and you say the money is not a big deal. Agreed. But the "Yankees or Rangers' not only would have lost money, they would have gave up their top prospects as well.
The question you totally missed is this: If Sale is a risky acquisition long term for a contending team, are they still going to offer the Sox a great package of prospects in return. If yes, then I agree you trade him. But he is a legit Number One starter. Accepting less a package because his value is limited due to fear of injury is crazy. Then you hold him.


Like I said, I would only trade him for a great set of prospects. And never under estimate the stupidity of some GM's when they think they can win now. Look at some of the idiotic contracts given out to guys like Howard, Hamilton, Puljos, A-rod, and yes Verlander. If I were a GM, I'd rather lose 3 prospects and $30MM for a year and half of an ace starter (with the possibility of more) then be paying some of the guys above $25MM per year when they are 35+.

Only one way to find out what the market is for Sale and that is to listen to inquiries (and I am sure teams are inquiring about him.)


I don't think Hahn has the guts to trade him anyway.


Bob
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  #146  
Old 06-23-2013, 11:39 PM
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This thread is always good for a laugh
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  #147  
Old 06-24-2013, 03:14 AM
blandman blandman is offline
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Originally Posted by Frater Perdurabo View Post
The Tigers aren't as good as some make them out to be.

They are winning divisions because they beat up on AL Central teams that beat themselves. If we stopped beating ourselves with our current roster, we would be neck-and-neck with them, just like 2012.

I realize, though, that certain players on our team have a predilection to making dumb mistakes (Flowers, DeAza, Alexei) and need to be changed out, because they don't produce enough offensively to overcome their dumb play and poor fundamentals. Others on our roster need to go because they are old and can no longer produce. Replace these players with fundamentally sound players, and we will compete again.

We will overcome the Tigers if/ when we have good pitching, play fundamentally sound baseball with good fielding, and draft/develop our own core of 3-4-5 hitters.

We have good pitching. We can get the second part over two offseasons. The third part requires shrewd drafting and top-notch player development.


I have no words for this.

Man.
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  #148  
Old 06-24-2013, 11:04 AM
kobo kobo is offline
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Originally Posted by A. Cavatica View Post
Then they should build a top-of-the-line scouting and development organization, whatever it costs.


That's the problem with this team, when it comes to the minor leagues and scouting and player development they go cheap. They have been going that route for years now and look where the organization is now. What makes you or anyone else on this board think this philosophy is going to suddenly change? We can sit here all day and talk about what the Sox need to do and what they should be doing in drafting and developing players but we've already been doing that for a few years. And nothing has changed. I have no faith that the organization is able or willing to change their philosophy. As has been pointed out previously, the club is still making money doing what they are doing and I don't think ownership is really interested in making these type of organizational changes that we as fans know need to happen.
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  #149  
Old 06-24-2013, 11:21 AM
rdivaldi rdivaldi is offline
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What is this "5 years away" garbage that keeps popping up? You can rebuild your major league team in 1 year if you spend the money (yes, I know that's not going to happen) and in 3 years pretty easily.
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  #150  
Old 06-24-2013, 11:35 AM
blandman blandman is offline
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What is this "5 years away" garbage that keeps popping up? You can rebuild your major league team in 1 year if you spend the money (yes, I know that's not going to happen) and in 3 years pretty easily.
No, you can't. Not if you're starting with nothing like we are. If we were able to trade for high end core players ready to play in the next year or so, then sure. But we've got a total of one guy you could trade for that and none of those players currently in our system.

No team signs an entire team worth of free agents. Not even the Yankees do that.
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