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  #31  
Old 07-23-2013, 12:35 PM
Domeshot17 Domeshot17 is offline
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No question about it. When the Cubs make a move like this, it's regarded as a stroke of genius. If the Sox had made a similar move, they would be declared idiots.

Over the last two summers, the Cubs have dealt four established MLB starters (Dempster, Maholm, Feldman, Garza) for packages of ifs and maybes. Could it work? Sure. It could also fail miserably. I'm just a bit baffled that so many of the writers in this town are convinced each move the Cubs make is going to prove to be brilliant over the long haul. We don't know that yet and we won't know it for years.
The thing is, the Cubs approach to rebuilding is brilliant. It may not work, but they are putting themselves in the best possible position for it too. If you had to pick between the roster's, The Cubs 25 man and their farm or the Sox 25 man and their farm, it would not be hard to argue for the Sox.

The Cubs seem to be using players to build depth, any position, it does not matter. They now have 3 very good 3b prospects. That increases the chances 1 makes it. If another makes it, they move that player to the OF. If all 3 do, they can trade 1 for a weak spot that doesn't work out.

The Sox for a while have been scared to make these moves. But I think ultimately, we are not winning anything this year or next. Our offense is one of the most pathetic in the league, and we have nothing on the horizon to make it better. At some point, we have to build this thing right.

I hate to admit it, but without bias, If I had to pick between Hahn and Theo, I would take Theo.
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  #32  
Old 07-23-2013, 12:47 PM
SCCWS SCCWS is offline
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Originally Posted by Domeshot17 View Post
The thing is, the Cubs approach to rebuilding is brilliant. It may not work, but they are putting themselves in the best possible position for it too. If you had to pick between the roster's, The Cubs 25 man and their farm or the Sox 25 man and their farm, it would not be hard to argue for the Sox.

The Cubs seem to be using players to build depth, any position, it does not matter. They now have 3 very good 3b prospects. That increases the chances 1 makes it. If another makes it, they move that player to the OF. If all 3 do, they can trade 1 for a weak spot that doesn't work out.

The Sox for a while have been scared to make these moves. But I think ultimately, we are not winning anything this year or next. Our offense is one of the most pathetic in the league, and we have nothing on the horizon to make it better. At some point, we have to build this thing right.

I hate to admit it, but without bias, If I had to pick between Hahn and Theo, I would take Theo.
That is the same approach Theo used in Boston. 3 of their top 4 prospects can play 3rd and 2 of them can play SS. My hope was the White Sox could get #4 who is a AA 3rd baseman away from them in a Peavy deal.
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  #33  
Old 07-23-2013, 12:48 PM
blandman blandman is offline
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Originally Posted by Tragg View Post
Agree, although Olt's ceiling seems to be caving in. The relevant point is that we need a 3b. Gillespie is a backup and it would really help if he could play OF too.
I wouldn't give up on Gillespie just yet.
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  #34  
Old 07-23-2013, 01:19 PM
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Originally Posted by JB98 View Post
No question about it. When the Cubs make a move like this, it's regarded as a stroke of genius. If the Sox had made a similar move, they would be declared idiots.

Over the last two summers, the Cubs have dealt four established MLB starters (Dempster, Maholm, Feldman, Garza) for packages of ifs and maybes. Could it work? Sure. It could also fail miserably. I'm just a bit baffled that so many of the writers in this town are convinced each move the Cubs make is going to prove to be brilliant over the long haul. We don't know that yet and we won't know it for years.
Yeah, pretty much. I'll give the Cubs credit for some of their international signings, they have been very aggressive and have some interesting kids to try and mold, but otherwise, I have not been very impressed with the direction of the front office. They've drafted well because they've been so terrible but some of the trades they've made have been rather pedestrian.
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  #35  
Old 07-23-2013, 01:36 PM
The Immigrant The Immigrant is offline
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The Cubs seem to be using players to build depth, any position, it does not matter.
Except pitching.
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  #36  
Old 07-23-2013, 01:36 PM
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JB98 JB98 is offline
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Originally Posted by Domeshot17 View Post
The thing is, the Cubs approach to rebuilding is brilliant. It may not work, but they are putting themselves in the best possible position for it too. If you had to pick between the roster's, The Cubs 25 man and their farm or the Sox 25 man and their farm, it would not be hard to argue for the Sox.

The Cubs seem to be using players to build depth, any position, it does not matter. They now have 3 very good 3b prospects. That increases the chances 1 makes it. If another makes it, they move that player to the OF. If all 3 do, they can trade 1 for a weak spot that doesn't work out.

The Sox for a while have been scared to make these moves. But I think ultimately, we are not winning anything this year or next. Our offense is one of the most pathetic in the league, and we have nothing on the horizon to make it better. At some point, we have to build this thing right.

I hate to admit it, but without bias, If I had to pick between Hahn and Theo, I would take Theo.
Hahn hasn't been on the job long enough for anyone to make any judgments, IMO. I can't say that he's better or worse than Epstein. And regardless, Hoyer is the GM of the Cubs, not Epstein. And I hope people don't mind me calling him Epstein. It baffles me that all of Chicago is on a first-name basis with him.

I guess I'll just be the idiot who doesn't want a five-year rebuilding plan. I don't think much of trading veterans for prospects. For years, I've felt that fans and media and even some baseball executives have overvalued prospects.

I remember WSI having a meltdown the day KW traded Reed, Olivo and Morse for Garcia. "DAMN YOU KENNY! YOU MORTGAGED OUR FUTURE!" Meanwhile, I was crying tears of joy because the Sox were finally acting like a big-market team, acquiring the type of top-of-the-rotation pitcher you need to win a championship.

Texas just made a move similar to the one KW made in 2004. I love the move from the Rangers' perspective. I think they will make the playoffs now. They might even get to the World Series.

Let the Cubs stockpile all these prospects. I still don't know who is going to pitch for them when they are supposedly going to return to contention in 2015. If they aren't contending by then, it will be quite fair to criticize them for trading proven big-league starting pitchers for ifs and maybes.
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  #37  
Old 07-23-2013, 01:52 PM
SCCWS SCCWS is offline
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Originally Posted by JB98 View Post
Hahn hasn't been on the job long enough for anyone to make any judgments, IMO. I can't say that he's better or worse than Epstein. And regardless, Hoyer is the GM of the Cubs, not Epstein. And I hope people don't mind me calling him Epstein. It baffles me that all of Chicago is on a first-name basis with him.

I guess I'll just be the idiot who doesn't want a five-year rebuilding plan. I don't think much of trading veterans for prospects. For years, I've felt that fans and media and even some baseball executives have overvalued prospects.

I remember WSI having a meltdown the day KW traded Reed, Olivo and Morse for Garcia. "DAMN YOU KENNY! YOU MORTGAGED OUR FUTURE!" Meanwhile, I was crying tears of joy because the Sox were finally acting like a big-market team, acquiring the type of top-of-the-rotation pitcher you need to win a championship.

Texas just made a move similar to the one KW made in 2004. I love the move from the Rangers' perspective. I think they will make the playoffs now. They might even get to the World Series.

Let the Cubs stockpile all these prospects. I still don't know who is going to pitch for them when they are supposedly going to return to contention in 2015. If they aren't contending by then, it will be quite fair to criticize them for trading proven big-league starting pitchers for ifs and maybes.
Maybe Theo will use his Boston approach. When the Red Sox won in 2004, most of the roster was acquired via trades and free agency. When they won again in 2007, it was a combination of home grown and acquired pitchers. He went out and got Number 1's such as Pedro, Shilling and Beckett and added young players like Lester, Buccholz, Papelbon
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  #38  
Old 07-23-2013, 01:53 PM
Domeshot17 Domeshot17 is offline
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Originally Posted by JB98 View Post
Hahn hasn't been on the job long enough for anyone to make any judgments, IMO. I can't say that he's better or worse than Epstein. And regardless, Hoyer is the GM of the Cubs, not Epstein. And I hope people don't mind me calling him Epstein. It baffles me that all of Chicago is on a first-name basis with him.

I guess I'll just be the idiot who doesn't want a five-year rebuilding plan. I don't think much of trading veterans for prospects. For years, I've felt that fans and media and even some baseball executives have overvalued prospects.

I remember WSI having a meltdown the day KW traded Reed, Olivo and Morse for Garcia. "DAMN YOU KENNY! YOU MORTGAGED OUR FUTURE!" Meanwhile, I was crying tears of joy because the Sox were finally acting like a big-market team, acquiring the type of top-of-the-rotation pitcher you need to win a championship.

Texas just made a move similar to the one KW made in 2004. I love the move from the Rangers' perspective. I think they will make the playoffs now. They might even get to the World Series.

Let the Cubs stockpile all these prospects. I still don't know who is going to pitch for them when they are supposedly going to return to contention in 2015. If they aren't contending by then, it will be quite fair to criticize them for trading proven big-league starting pitchers for ifs and maybes.
It is all about balance. I think what you will see in 2014 and 2015 especially with the Cubs is having 5-6 GOOD prospects who are up, and having 70-80 million to spend in FA. Because you have cost controlled players around the diamond, you can spend to fill the holes and use excess talent to fill holes via trade.

The Sox have never had balance. Our offense has 2 home grown starters, 1 is finally showing he does not totally suck (Gordon) and the book is out on Josh still.

Honestly, I have no problem with the Sox taking a few years to rebuild. I mean, this season sucks enough as is, might as well make it suck with a good farm. We are going to suck this bad next year, might as well keep getting the farm in order. PK needs to retire, Rios is on the downside of his career, Dunn is done, and none of the younger guys seem like you can really build around them. Gordon has been nice, but FAR from a cornerstone guy.

Put me in the category of wanting a team that wants sustained success. I simply do not enjoy 1 playoff trip every 5 years and justify it because we are .500 most the other years. I want to compete every season, we have the money to do it, we have not had the talent in a long time.

2005 is but a distant memory. Its almost 2015. Its time to win something else.
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  #39  
Old 07-23-2013, 02:07 PM
bestkosher bestkosher is offline
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My question is with Theo's plans, is how does his plan not make him the Royals or Pirates. They have a great prospects year after year and top picks year after year. Great talent in the farm but never do anything with it. Theo has done a Masterful job of marketing his plan but in the end you need a good mix of veteran and youth and right now it is mostly youth he is building his future on.
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  #40  
Old 07-23-2013, 02:34 PM
Domeshot17 Domeshot17 is offline
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Originally Posted by bestkosher View Post
My question is with Theo's plans, is how does his plan not make him the Royals or Pirates. They have a great prospects year after year and top picks year after year. Great talent in the farm but never do anything with it. Theo has done a Masterful job of marketing his plan but in the end you need a good mix of veteran and youth and right now it is mostly youth he is building his future on.
Big difference is the market and payroll. The Royals, for example, actually graduated a lot of talent. Where would that team have been if was able to keep together Dye-Damon-Beltran etc. They keep graduating quality players, and seeing them go.

The Cubs, as much as I hate it, seem to be a pretty premier destination for a free agent. Big Market, a ton of national coverage, huge crowds, great city. With a new Wrigley Field, they should be able to keep home grown talent locked up and spend to add additional players.
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  #41  
Old 07-23-2013, 03:03 PM
Golden Sox Golden Sox is offline
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I don't see how anybody can pick Epstein over Hahn. This is Hahns first year and lets see how this plays out in another year or two. If I was an owner of a team and my GM signed Edwin Jackson and Castro to big long term contracts like Epstein did, I wouldn't be too happy about it. I still can't figure out why he gave Jackson a 4 year contract worth over $50 million dollars. No other team offered Jackson more than 2 years. Epstein didn't want to give Garza a long term contract but he gave Jackson one. I can't imagine too many people who would take Jackson over Garza. Another of his big contract players, Rizzo isn't exactly tearing up the league. Rizzo can't seem to hit lefties and it looks like he might be a utility player. I do wish that Hahn would do something to change the White Sox offense. The sooner, the better. It's been tough going to these games and seeing this team game after game not hit.
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  #42  
Old 07-23-2013, 03:15 PM
kobo kobo is offline
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Originally Posted by JB98 View Post
No question about it. When the Cubs make a move like this, it's regarded as a stroke of genius. If the Sox had made a similar move, they would be declared idiots.

Over the last two summers, the Cubs have dealt four established MLB starters (Dempster, Maholm, Feldman, Garza) for packages of ifs and maybes. Could it work? Sure. It could also fail miserably. I'm just a bit baffled that so many of the writers in this town are convinced each move the Cubs make is going to prove to be brilliant over the long haul. We don't know that yet and we won't know it for years.
It's all because of one name: Theo Epstein.
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  #43  
Old 07-23-2013, 06:53 PM
CoopaLoop CoopaLoop is offline
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So obsessed with the Cubs we are wondering how people would react if the Sox had got this group of prospects for Peavy?

It's a great haul.

I hope the Sox find a similar package for Peavy.
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  #44  
Old 07-23-2013, 06:55 PM
blandman blandman is offline
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Originally Posted by CoopaLoop View Post
So obsessed with the Cubs we are wondering how people would react if the Sox had got this group of prospects for Peavy?

It's a great haul.

I hope the Sox find a similar package for Peavy.
I don't get it either. Grand slams aren't going to happen for these guys. This was a great haul. If we get something similar for Peavy, we should be ecstatic.

Last edited by blandman; 07-23-2013 at 07:43 PM. Reason: Meant "aren't"
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  #45  
Old 07-23-2013, 07:17 PM
Tragg Tragg is offline
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Originally Posted by JB98 View Post
No question about it. When the Cubs make a move like this, it's regarded as a stroke of genius. If the Sox had made a similar move, they would be declared idiots.

Over the last two summers, the Cubs have dealt four established MLB starters (Dempster, Maholm, Feldman, Garza) for packages of ifs and maybes. Could it work? Sure. It could also fail miserably. I'm just a bit baffled that so many of the writers in this town are convinced each move the Cubs make is going to prove to be brilliant over the long haul. We don't know that yet and we won't know it for years.
Agree - I don't see the great haul here for the Cubs, after I analyze it. Fading top prospect (been there, done that), a #5, possibly #4 starter, and A ball pitchers. Not what I'm looking for for Peavy.

The Cubs probably have a better roster...of course the Sox have been competitive for the last few years too. As for Theo's approach, I don't see how it differs from the Royals. Who are the studs on their ML roster? Rizzo? Uh, okay. Samardzijia? I see 3 equivalents on the Sox and one clearly better. Russel in the pen? He's pretty good. Castro - 3rd year slump. If these team wins in 2015 proceeding on this tract, fantastic for them. I know that a lot of people like this process of building teams....I just don't think it has a high success rate.
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