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  #46  
Old 08-05-2013, 10:59 AM
Foulke You Foulke You is offline
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Never once did I feel the "Summer of Sadness" was upon us. I mean, this is deadball era level of offense in the modern era. History in the making. Even the people straining their arms to pat themselves on the back for predicting a bad team have to admit that this offense is far worse than even they could have imagined. This year makes the 2011 offense look like a juggernaut. We lost Floyd for the entire year, lost Peavy to injury and trade, and we STILL have one of the best starting pitching staffs but unless that staff pitches a shutout, they have no hope to win a game. The only positive about this season is that it forces management to transition to a new core of position players.
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  #47  
Old 08-05-2013, 11:02 AM
Foulke You Foulke You is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Domeshot17 View Post
There really is not 1 guy on this team you feel great about being on this team next year offensively outside Garcia (who is a prospect) and Gordon (who is your 9 hitter).
It's too early to comment about next year's lineup because it is likely to look vastly different than what is being trotted out there in 2013. Hahn has been quoted as saying they are "transitioning to a new core". The process begins when Garcia gets called up before the end of the year but I expect that process to continue in the offseason with trades, acquired prospects, and FA signings. I figure a minimum of four starters to be replaced.
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  #48  
Old 08-05-2013, 11:48 AM
shes shes is offline
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Originally Posted by Tragg View Post
Look at the yankees. They have 2 hitters with OPS+ over 100; we have 3. The Royals have 3. The Rangers and Diamondbacks have 4.
Why are those teams over .500 and we're 29 below? It's not hitting.
Defense, baserunning, and something we haven't talked much about - bullpen (another area where lack of depth in the farm really hurts - we can't even fill our bullpen with farmhands and we really have only 2 respectable pieces in our pen right now).
Not that our hitting doesn't need to improve. It does by a lot. but in the meantime, get some defensive players in here to play C, SS and CF in the offseason (we should be able to get someone like Chris Young on the cheap), get some coaching, and bring up Castro and some others for auditions for the pen.
Jettison Rios (no power anymore), Alexei if we can. I'd tend to keep DeAza and let him play left where defense won't hurt as bad (deal him if someone would give us value, which they might - not a bad hitter). Find a defensive catcher.
That's a pretty arbitrary way of evaluating hitting.

The White Sox are second to last in runs scored, behind only the AA club known as the Marlins. That speaks to a massive problem in hitting, or if you want to be a bit more all-encompassing, in overall offensive execution. They can't hit, can't run the bases, can't move runners along when the situation dictates.

The other problems are significant, sure, but they aren't nearly as big as the offense problem.
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  #49  
Old 08-05-2013, 11:57 AM
russ99 russ99 is offline
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Originally Posted by shes View Post
That's a pretty arbitrary way of evaluating hitting.

The White Sox are second to last in runs scored, behind only the AA club known as the Marlins. That speaks to a massive problem in hitting, or if you want to be a bit more all-encompassing, in overall offensive execution. They can't hit, can't run the bases, can't move runners along when the situation dictates.

The other problems are significant, sure, but they aren't nearly as big as the offense problem.
We're 29th in runs, 21st in hits, 28th in walks, 21st in HRs, 27th in extra base hits, 22nd in RISP, 26th in 2-out RISP, 19th in BA, 28th in OBP.

Pretty much across the board bad.
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  #50  
Old 08-05-2013, 12:22 PM
Tragg Tragg is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by russ99 View Post
We're 29th in runs, 21st in hits, 28th in walks, 21st in HRs, 27th in extra base hits, 22nd in RISP, 26th in 2-out RISP, 19th in BA, 28th in OBP.

Pretty much across the board bad.
Yet we're 4th in OBP and and BA with RISP. That tells a lot. We run the bases poorly.
We need 3 or so run producers on this team. But if the rest could be league close to league average hitters, or even a few below, but could run the bases (and I don't mean steals) that would help immeasurably and we could be respectable.
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  #51  
Old 08-05-2013, 12:29 PM
captain54 captain54 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by russ99 View Post
We're 29th in runs, 21st in hits, 28th in walks, 21st in HRs, 27th in extra base hits, 22nd in RISP, 26th in 2-out RISP, 19th in BA, 28th in OBP.
.
Even the 2005 team was not really an offensive juggernaut, and the Home Run or nothing philosophy in addition to some amazing pitching that year brought it all home... Heck, they won the clinching WS game 1-0, and during the 05 season were below average in OBP, BA and Hits...

The problem is, the organization never budged from the 05 formula of.. swing for the fences and great pitching... it was bound to catch up with them sooner or later
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  #52  
Old 08-05-2013, 12:34 PM
24thStFan 24thStFan is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by russ99 View Post
We're 29th in runs, 21st in hits, 28th in walks, 21st in HRs, 27th in extra base hits, 22nd in RISP, 26th in 2-out RISP, 19th in BA, 28th in OBP.

Pretty much across the board bad.
According to the White Sox MLB web site:
"Conor Gillaspie and Jeff Keppinger, who have split most of the time at 3rd base, are batting .159 with one home run and three RBIs during the team's current 10-game losing streak".

Now that's BAD!
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  #53  
Old 08-05-2013, 01:44 PM
hawkjt hawkjt is offline
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Originally Posted by Tragg View Post
I don't think that Williams trying to keep the team competitive was really the problem.
I think the problem is really more bad scouting, bad player development, coaching and bad trades.
Bad scouting in the sense that we weren't getting much quality from our farm system. Bad scouting in the sense that these prospects we traded for, and we always seemed to zero in on one prospect, were duds: Flowers, Stewart, Castro(Castro may end up being okay but likely nothing special - heck he should be in our pen right now), Molina, the 3 players we got from the Yankees for Swisher.
And then there were bad trades. When we were dumping veterans, we seemed to zero-in on one prospect, rather than get back the best package we could. some looked like utter give-aways. When we traded our veterans, however, we loaded the wagon - 3 of our top 5 prospects for Nick Swisher; our two top pitching prospects for Edwin Jackson, only to flip him for nothing.
And our farm yielded nothing in position players except for Beckham whom we rushed. Pitching was much better. But even that, while development has been good on the top end, doesn't have a lot of depth (we have only 2 developed pitchers in our bullpen).
We've had one highly regarded coach through this time - Cooper. It shows.

Agree. Gio is just about the only traded Sox prospect that has amounted to much....who else?

No, the problem is
1. Sox had a long run of sustained competiveness( 2000-2102) which meant no high draft picks really since the early 90's.
2. There drafting has been poor.
3. Development of hitters has been poor.

That is all Kenny's responsibility but the trades were not what killed the Sox farm system....nothing there to begin with.
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  #54  
Old 08-05-2013, 01:49 PM
eriqjaffe eriqjaffe is offline
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Originally Posted by hawkjt View Post
Agree. Gio is just about the only traded Sox prospect that has amounted to much....who else?
Daniel Hudson has put up really good numbers in Arizona. Sure, last year he didn't do well, but it may explain why he needed Tommy John surgery. The jury's still out on how good he'll be long-term, though.
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  #55  
Old 08-05-2013, 01:53 PM
Tragg Tragg is offline
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Originally Posted by eriqjaffe View Post
Daniel Hudson has put up really good numbers in Arizona. Sure, last year he didn't do well, but it may explain why he needed Tommy John surgery. The jury's still out on how good he'll be long-term, though.
And Holmberg is one of their top prospects.

It's not like we lost a ton...remarkable really how little we lost considering all of our top prospects we dealt.
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  #56  
Old 08-05-2013, 02:05 PM
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doublem23 doublem23 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eriqjaffe View Post
Daniel Hudson has put up really good numbers in Arizona. Sure, last year he didn't do well, but it may explain why he needed Tommy John surgery. The jury's still out on how good he'll be long-term, though.
Didn't he re-tear his UCL and basically have to get Tommy John surgery again?

Maybe the jury is still out on what his ceiling could have been, but I'm not sure there's a lot of people expecting much from him any more.
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  #57  
Old 08-05-2013, 03:18 PM
Domeshot17 Domeshot17 is offline
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Originally Posted by Tragg View Post
Look at the yankees. They have 2 hitters with OPS+ over 100; we have 3. The Royals have 3. The Rangers and Diamondbacks have 4.
Why are those teams over .500 and we're 29 below? It's not hitting.
Defense, baserunning, and something we haven't talked much about - bullpen (another area where lack of depth in the farm really hurts - we can't even fill our bullpen with farmhands and we really have only 2 respectable pieces in our pen right now).
Not that our hitting doesn't need to improve. It does by a lot. but in the meantime, get some defensive players in here to play C, SS and CF in the offseason (we should be able to get someone like Chris Young on the cheap), get some coaching, and bring up Castro and some others for auditions for the pen.
Jettison Rios (no power anymore), Alexei if we can. I'd tend to keep DeAza and let him play left where defense won't hurt as bad (deal him if someone would give us value, which they might - not a bad hitter). Find a defensive catcher.
(1) You are cherry picking here, terrible use of stats
(2) You did not mention 1 first place team in your list.....
(3) Only 1 team you listed currently has greater than a 50% chance to MAKE THE PLAYOFFS
(4) Yes, fundamentals are bad as well, hence why I mentioned we aren't trading offense for defense here.....
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  #58  
Old 08-05-2013, 06:22 PM
Iron Dragon2 Iron Dragon2 is offline
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Last year, I thought they'd be a 70-72 win team. I was wrong. I thought this year they'd be a 70-72 win team. Apparently, I'm going to be wrong again. More like a 60-62 win team....
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  #59  
Old 08-05-2013, 06:24 PM
amsteel amsteel is offline
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If this year's team plays 1000 seasons they probably average 75 wins. This year (and last year) are outliers.
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  #60  
Old 08-05-2013, 06:29 PM
KyWhiSoxFan KyWhiSoxFan is offline
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If this year's team plays 1000 seasons they probably average 75 wins. This year (and last year) are outliers.
This team is already old. I don't see how they would win 75 games even 20 years from now when Konerko is 58, let alone 100 years from now.
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