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  #16  
Old 08-03-2013, 01:20 PM
dickallen15 dickallen15 is offline
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Originally Posted by kittle42 View Post
How can you law blame at the feet of a man who had zero qualifications for the position for which he was hired? Blame belongs to the persons who hired him.
I have never understood this experience argument. Robin has plenty of experience and people with no experience seem to think they know everything he does wrong. In other words, if experience is so huge, how can you be in a position to know what he does wrong if you lack the experience you believe is required. We don't get the whole scoop anyway. Hahn mentioned Robin and his staff do confront players. They do work on fundamentals, fielding, baserunning often. They even take batting practice everyday. It doesn't mean they are going to hit. Robin keeps a lot in house, and we see his calm demeanor which is misread as a guy who doesn't want the job and is just collecting a check. I would think if anyone was a manager for any kind of company they would hope to have more than Robin has to work with if they are totally going to be judged on results. He will be fine. The Sox record has nothing to do with Ventura's managing.
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  #17  
Old 08-03-2013, 01:22 PM
DSpivack DSpivack is offline
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Originally Posted by amsteel View Post
If he can't be blamed for this year, he can't get any credit for last year, right?
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Originally Posted by SCCWS View Post
If this roster was competitive last season, I think Robin deserves some blame for the total collapse. Obviously the fundamentals have really declined which may mean that last year's good defense reflects on the work of the previous coaching staff.
I don't see it as a blame/not-blame issue for Ventura in 2012 and 2013. In viewing the Sox roster, the past number of years have seen a veteran-laden team (especially at the plate, not as much with the pitching staff). Well, their aging players declined rather quickly, and now the Sox are paying the price of that. I don't know how much value Ventura adds or subtracts to the team. I don't think he's a very good manager, but I don't think he's a completely toxic one like Bevington was (or Valentine was last season in Boston).

Last year, the Sox offense (though slightly below average) was sustained by a big year from AJ, much better years from Rios and De Aza as compared to 2013, a brief hot spurt by Youkilis before he got injured, and a very solid season from Konerko. Flowers replacing AJ has been a disaster, Konerko looks done when he has been healthy, Rios and De Aza have both regressed, Gillespie replacing Youkilis has been another disaster, and Viciedo has also regressed from last season. Beckham at 2B is probably the only offensive improvement the Sox have as compared to 2012.

Thus, looking at the roster the Sox have replaced some solid but aging veterans with younger players who just can't cut it, while other veterans have regressed, and other players have declined where improvement was expected (Ramirez, Viciedo).

Given the dearth of talent for years in the Sox organization, the outcome isn't exactly a shock, even if it surprising. But I don't see how Ventura is at fault for long-standing systemic issues with the organization, issues which have this season have come home to roost in a big way.
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  #18  
Old 08-03-2013, 01:26 PM
gobears1987 gobears1987 is offline
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The team sucks with or without Robin, but he certainly hasn't helped in any way.
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  #19  
Old 08-03-2013, 01:42 PM
Mohoney Mohoney is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by amsteel
If he can't be blamed for this year, he can't get any credit for last year, right?
I think that last year's success was due more to Ozzie being gone than anything in particular that Robin did. The team got such a boost from Ozzie's departure that they played over their heads in the first half. That, combined with the Tigers sleepwalking through the first half last year, kept a team that probably shouldn't have been competing for a division title in the race until they ran out of gas in September.
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  #20  
Old 08-03-2013, 01:54 PM
pudge pudge is offline
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For one thing, the board is dead due to the Sox sucking, so there is no energy around here for an uproar. I am very concerned, and the few times I've posted I usually include a concerned remark about Ventura. My big concern is he doesn't really want to do this. And the fact his team died on him last year, and is one of the worst Sox teams ever this year, has to go back somewhat to the manager. I don't like to blame managers for everything, heck I don't blame them for most things, but when it looks like a team doesn't care, THAT's when I blame them. That to me goes right back to the manager. All in all, I'm not feeling all that warm and fuzzy about a guy who had his team blow a big lead late in his first season, and wet the bed in his second.
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  #21  
Old 08-03-2013, 01:55 PM
WhiteSox5187 WhiteSox5187 is offline
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The fact that the team is playing like crap isn't not necessarily Robin's fault but the fact that the team appears to have completely given up and has at times called him out in the press suggests that he has lost the clubhouse and that is his fault.
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  #22  
Old 08-03-2013, 02:51 PM
tstrike2000 tstrike2000 is offline
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Because we need to unload almost half the team.
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  #23  
Old 08-03-2013, 03:59 PM
dickallen15 dickallen15 is offline
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Originally Posted by WhiteSox5187 View Post
The fact that the team is playing like crap isn't not necessarily Robin's fault but the fact that the team appears to have completely given up and has at times called him out in the press suggests that he has lost the clubhouse and that is his fault.
The only one who called him out was Rios after Robin sat him for loafing. Rios thought being taken out of the game was embarrassing and unneccessary. He hasn't lost the clubhouse at all.
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  #24  
Old 08-03-2013, 04:34 PM
shingo10 shingo10 is offline
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Can a manager really be judged after 2 seasons? I'm guessing not. I think La Russa had a really bad year in either his first or second year. Turned out to do pretty well after that. (Not well enough for Hawk though...yes)

Anyway, it seems that anyone with ties to the Sox organization is happy with how Robin and the coaching staff have been preparing the players. Unfortunately it hasn't translated into anything but as many have said let's see how they do with a team that isn't full of injured, aging veterans and overall bad players.
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  #25  
Old 08-03-2013, 04:54 PM
kittle42 kittle42 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dickallen15 View Post
I have never understood this experience argument. Robin has plenty of experience and people with no experience seem to think they know everything he does wrong. In other words, if experience is so huge, how can you be in a position to know what he does wrong if you lack the experience you believe is required. We don't get the whole scoop anyway. Hahn mentioned Robin and his staff do confront players. They do work on fundamentals, fielding, baserunning often. They even take batting practice everyday. It doesn't mean they are going to hit. Robin keeps a lot in house, and we see his calm demeanor which is misread as a guy who doesn't want the job and is just collecting a check. I would think if anyone was a manager for any kind of company they would hope to have more than Robin has to work with if they are totally going to be judged on results. He will be fine. The Sox record has nothing to do with Ventura's managing.
I'll use this argument the next time I am looking for a job for which I have next to no qualifications. Wouldn't it apply anywhere in life with this logic, or is there something special about sports or baseball in particular that allows for a person with nothing on their resume to get a specialized position? In my opinion, the "experience argument" is just basic business sense.

Almost every manager and coach has to work his way up through the minors like regular players. I have serious doubts Ventura was hired because he came off an interview sounding like the next coming of Tony LaRussa.
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  #26  
Old 08-03-2013, 04:57 PM
kittle42 kittle42 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shingo10 View Post
Can a manager really be judged after 2 seasons?
No, they need at least 1,000 ABs.

Say, where is the 1,000 AB crowd in support of Tyler Flowers?
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  #27  
Old 08-03-2013, 06:41 PM
dickallen15 dickallen15 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kittle42 View Post
I'll use this argument the next time I am looking for a job for which I have next to no qualifications. Wouldn't it apply anywhere in life with this logic, or is there something special about sports or baseball in particular that allows for a person with nothing on their resume to get a specialized position? In my opinion, the "experience argument" is just basic business sense.

Almost every manager and coach has to work his way up through the minors like regular players. I have serious doubts Ventura was hired because he came off an interview sounding like the next coming of Tony LaRussa.
It's freaking baseball not rocket science, he played the game at the highest level for 15 years. He was always considered a leader. He has more "experience" than anyone on this board, so using your logic, none of us would ever be in a position to critique.
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  #28  
Old 08-03-2013, 09:13 PM
cv sox fan cv sox fan is offline
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He was hired because he was a fan favorite and worked cheeped.I do not think anyone thought it would get this bad this fast.He has lost control all he dose is sit there and blow bubbles.Still think we would have one division last year if we had experienced manager. please get rid of him!
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  #29  
Old 08-03-2013, 10:07 PM
gosox41 gosox41 is offline
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Originally Posted by cv sox fan View Post
He was hired because he was a fan favorite and worked cheeped.I do not think anyone thought it would get this bad this fast.He has lost control all he dose is sit there and blow bubbles.Still think we would have one division last year if we had experienced manager. please get rid of him!
FWIW, I think Robin 'retires' after next year. He leaves after this year and he is known as a quitter. He'll save face next year when they are not nearly as bad.


Bob
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  #30  
Old 08-03-2013, 10:13 PM
jdm2662 jdm2662 is offline
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Did I expect them to be this bad? The answer is no. Am I surprised? Meh, whatever. **** happens. Nothing surprises me. I also didn't expect them to be in first place much of the season last year, either. They were bound to be ****ty eventually. It's the life of professional sports. It's all entertainment to me, and my life goes on as is whether they win or lose.

As for the future, well, there is no such thing as next year in sports. I was told by many on this very same board after the Sox lost 90 games in 2007, we were headed to many more bad losing seasons. The Sox won the division the next season. I'm not saying they will win the division next year. Hell, they may lose 90+ games again. Whatever. I'm not going to doom and gloom and act like the world is coming to an end. I expect a completely different roster next year. Whether it's good enough remains to be seen. I'm certainly not going to lose any sleep over it. I have other things to worry about.
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