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  #61  
Old 08-05-2013, 12:51 PM
mahagga73 mahagga73 is offline
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Originally Posted by dickallen15 View Post
Last year the Sox won 85 games. This year, Robin came in with experience. The experience argument is stupid. This is baseball.

BTW, 6 dropped flyballs today in the majors. Managers were bad.
If the experience argument is stupid why do most all teams hire managers with a track record of either experience as a former manager , assistant, or minor league manager. That statement makes no sense to me.
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  #62  
Old 08-05-2013, 01:11 PM
dickallen15 dickallen15 is offline
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Originally Posted by mahagga73 View Post
If the experience argument is stupid why do most all teams hire managers with a track record of either experience as a former manager , assistant, or minor league manager. That statement makes no sense to me.
Because in this particular case, the zero experienced manager won 85 games. Now that he does have experience, his team is losing. You can't have both. If his inexperience is the reason or at least one of the reasons the team is so bad, how come the team was really good last year when he had zero experience? And zero experience is a misnomer. The guy played MLB for 15 years or so. It's not like he started watching the game a week before they hired him. Everyone who criticizes him on this board has less experience than him, yet they seem to think they are experts. This is baseball. The x's and o's are pretty standard. It's dealing with the players and managing the pitching staff which are the tough things, and Cooper has a lot of power in the pitcher's department.
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  #63  
Old 08-05-2013, 01:34 PM
kittle42 kittle42 is offline
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Originally Posted by dickallen15 View Post
Because in this particular case, the zero experienced manager won 85 games. Now that he does have experience, his team is losing. You can't have both. If his inexperience is the reason or at least one of the reasons the team is so bad, how come the team was really good last year when he had zero experience? And zero experience is a misnomer. The guy played MLB for 15 years or so. It's not like he started watching the game a week before they hired him. Everyone who criticizes him on this board has less experience than him, yet they seem to think they are experts. This is baseball. The x's and o's are pretty standard. It's dealing with the players and managing the pitching staff which are the tough things, and Cooper has a lot of power in the pitcher's department.
That repeated statement I have made here has been that he had zero experience at the time he was hired, and that this was a boneheaded move. 85 wins ain't moving any mountains, as an aside.
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  #64  
Old 08-05-2013, 02:09 PM
captain54 captain54 is offline
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I think "why isn't Robin being blamed more for this" title of the thread is becoming less and less relevant as the season increasingly goes down the crapper, seeing as he IS increasingly being blamed more for this
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  #65  
Old 08-05-2013, 02:24 PM
kobo kobo is offline
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Originally Posted by dickallen15 View Post
Because in this particular case, the zero experienced manager won 85 games. Now that he does have experience, his team is losing. You can't have both. If his inexperience is the reason or at least one of the reasons the team is so bad, how come the team was really good last year when he had zero experience? And zero experience is a misnomer. The guy played MLB for 15 years or so. It's not like he started watching the game a week before they hired him. Everyone who criticizes him on this board has less experience than him, yet they seem to think they are experts. This is baseball. The x's and o's are pretty standard. It's dealing with the players and managing the pitching staff which are the tough things, and Cooper has a lot of power in the pitcher's department.
So one year of experience managing at the major league level after having zero experience previous to last year is enough for you? You can't count his playing days as experience because being a player and being a coach/manager are 2 entirely different things. I'm not going to sit here and pretend that I know better than Robin but I'm also not going to pretend that one year of managing, at any level, is more than enough to be experienced.
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  #66  
Old 08-05-2013, 02:34 PM
dickallen15 dickallen15 is offline
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So one year of experience managing at the major league level after having zero experience previous to last year is enough for you? You can't count his playing days as experience because being a player and being a coach/manager are 2 entirely different things. I'm not going to sit here and pretend that I know better than Robin but I'm also not going to pretend that one year of managing, at any level, is more than enough to be experienced.
This is baseball, not someone who is going to cut open my head and operate on my brain, or someone who is representing me for a crime I didn't commit and my freedom at stake.

What experience do you have to be able to judge? If playing in the major leagues for 15 years and managing a season isn't enough "experience", how can the people who are judging this have even less experience?

People like to point out what they think Robin does wrong all the time. How would they know it's wrong, considering you need xxx experience to be able to make the correct decision?

People get a kick out of other people getting fired. Just hope someday that if you have as little to do with a bad situation with your employer as Robin does with the White Sox losing, you don't end up with the fate you want to put on him.
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  #67  
Old 08-05-2013, 02:38 PM
Harry Chappas Harry Chappas is offline
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Originally Posted by dickallen15 View Post
Calling Ventura responsible for this train wreck would be like calling a track coach Paulie hired horrible for not showing him how to be Bolt in a race. People need to grow up. Blaming the manager for everything is silly. Alex Rios loafed in Toronto. He loafed for Ozzie. He loafed for Robin. He will loaf for his next manager. Alexei Ramirez makes spectacular plays, but he's made boneheaded plays since he's been here, and doesn't have Paulie at 1B saving him errors anymore. Alejandro De Aza was claimed on WAIVERS. There's a reason for that. He's a boneheaded player and always will be.

Changing the manager solves nothing. Greg Walker used to be responsible for the White Sox offense being inept. They got rid of him, but when did they lose 9 games in a row when their starters had quality starts when he was around? The players need to change.

Joe Maddon is considered a good manager. His first 2 years in TB his teams lost 101 and 96 games. You should go back and look at the talent and individual performances of those teams. You wouldn't trade those teams for the current White Sox.
No one is blaming Ventura for "everything". And FWIW (not much), I wasn't exactly blown-away by his decision-making last season.

Managers get too much credit for wins and losses, but there is some hard to define quality that sets the good managers apart. Some of you act as if being a former player alone is enough to excel at the job. I think there's more to it than that. A good manager seems to be able to push the right buttons and keep the team focused even when things aren't going great. But above all else, they seem to have the respect of their players where they (players) are loathe to let them (managers) down.
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  #68  
Old 08-05-2013, 03:39 PM
kittle42 kittle42 is offline
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Originally Posted by dickallen15 View Post
People get a kick out of other people getting fired. Just hope someday that if you have as little to do with a bad situation with your employer as Robin does with the White Sox losing, you don't end up with the fate you want to put on him.
Jesus Christ - I do not think this is the motivation of one person posting in this thread.

By your logic of "this is only baseball" and not brain surgery or criminal law, one could make the same argument as it relates to countless professions, taking me back to my first point that taking a chance on someone with no experience in a high-level role is not considered a strong business strategy. It's a sport, but it's unquestionably a huge financial business, as well.

I am actually not criticizing Ventura at all. In fact, I made the point that the blame hardly is with him. I blamed those hiring him when he was, in almost everyone's opinion including baseball experts, unqualified.
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  #69  
Old 08-05-2013, 04:18 PM
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I don't think Robin is a great manager, nor do I think he is a poor manager.

I think he manages the same way most every other manager in the game manages. He does the lefty-righty stuff. He doesn't tinker much. Doesn't deviate much from "the book." I really don't think a bunch of blatantly poor strategy from the manager has put the Sox in this position. I can think of a couple of dumb intentional walks that have been issued this year, but for the most part, the players own this.

What I don't know is what goes on beyond closed doors. That's really where Hahn needs to look when he weighs whether to bring Robin back for 2014. I put no stock in Hahn's recent comments. What else is he supposed to say in public? I wouldn't rule out a change just because Hahn said Robin's job isn't on the line. It comes down to whether the GM is comfortable with the way the manager and his staff have dealt with the different situations that have arisen this year. No one here has definitive answers about that.

I know there are people here who think Robin should be gone because he has "lost the team" or whatever. To me, that kind of statement excuses the players. I don't really buy that guys are going out there and ****ing up left and right because they have a problem with the manager, or don't respect the manager. I personally think this is a mentally-weak group of players with no clubhouse leadership whatsoever. They have just completely collapsed in the face of adversity this year. Well, at least the position players have. I find it interesting the starting pitchers are still battling and producing results. Maybe it's because they are all young and are trying to establish themselves in the league, or in Danks' case, trying to re-establish himself after serious injury.

IMO, we have some veterans who are too comfortable. They know the organization has no replacements for them. There's nobody on the bench and little coming in the high minors. The front office needs to do something about that. Create a little internal competition on this team for crying out loud. Alexei Ramirez has no fear of being benched because he is the only man in the entire organization who can possibly handle SS at the big-league level. That's ridiculous. We might be seeing fewer mental errors from him and guys like Rios and De Aza if these players had a little fear for their jobs.
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  #70  
Old 08-05-2013, 04:22 PM
dickallen15 dickallen15 is offline
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I don't think Robin is a great manager, nor do I think he is a poor manager.

I think he manages the same way most every other manager in the game manages. He does the lefty-righty stuff. He doesn't tinker much. Doesn't deviate much from "the book." I really don't think a bunch of blatantly poor strategy from the manager has put the Sox in this position. I can think of a couple of dumb intentional walks that have been issued this year, but for the most part, the players own this.

What I don't know is what goes on beyond closed doors. That's really where Hahn needs to look when he weighs whether to bring Robin back for 2014. I put no stock in Hahn's recent comments. What else is he supposed to say in public? I wouldn't rule out a change just because Hahn said Robin's job isn't on the line. It comes down to whether the GM is comfortable with the way the manager and his staff have dealt with the different situations that have arisen this year. No one here has definitive answers about that.

I know there are people here who think Robin should be gone because he has "lost the team" or whatever. To me, that kind of statement excuses the players. I don't really buy that guys are going out there and ****ing up left and right because they have a problem with the manager, or don't respect the manager. I personally think this is a mentally-weak group of players with no clubhouse leadership whatsoever. They have just completely collapsed in the face of adversity this year. Well, at least the position players have. I find it interesting the starting pitchers are still battling and producing results. Maybe it's because they are all young and are trying to establish themselves in the league, or in Danks' case, trying to re-establish himself after serious injury.

IMO, we have some veterans who are too comfortable. They know the organization has no replacements for them. There's nobody on the bench and little coming in the high minors. The front office needs to do something about that. Create a little internal competition on this team for crying out loud. Alexei Ramirez has no fear of being benched because he is the only man in the entire organization who can possibly handle SS at the big-league level. That's ridiculous. We might be seeing fewer mental errors from him and guys like Rios and De Aza if these players had a little fear for their jobs.
I would think Hahn at least liked what he saw last year because he did offer Robin an extension. He claims its been the same this year, but you are right, what is he going to say? Although he wouldn't look too genuine saying what he said and then canning him later. I'm sure Robin will be back.
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  #71  
Old 08-05-2013, 04:25 PM
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I would think Hahn at least liked what he saw last year because he did offer Robin an extension. He claims its been the same this year, but you are right, what is he going to say? Although he wouldn't look too genuine saying what he said and then canning him later. I'm sure Robin will be back.
True, but I've seen many GMs hand out votes of confidence, then change the manager after the season. We'll see.
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  #72  
Old 08-05-2013, 06:08 PM
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Ventura on responsibility for bad team. "It's all my fault." Tongue in cheek, but he accepts his share. Hahn voiced more support for staff.
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  #73  
Old 08-05-2013, 06:14 PM
Tragg Tragg is offline
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I don't think Robin is a great manager, nor do I think he is a poor manager.

I think he manages the same way most every other manager in the game manages. He does the lefty-righty stuff.
It's like he's reading from a book when he does that stuff. Lefty up, better bring in Veal...no matter if the bases are loaded and Reed or Nate Jones, the far superior pitchers are available. 3 righties coming up? Well, put in Jones, even though it's the 6th inning and no one's on base. Tie game in the 8th and they have a runner on 2nd with a base open? Better IW the next batter to set up the double play, even though that batter is Chris Getz. Bullpen a little tired - what the heck, pitch the starters 115-120 innings.

I don't know how much Hahn has any say in this anyway. Kenny and JR picked him.
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  #74  
Old 08-05-2013, 06:43 PM
SCCWS SCCWS is offline
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.

I don't know how much Hahn has any say in this anyway. Kenny and JR picked him.
I think JR picked him. The question now is can Hahn fire him and get his own choice. My guess is Manto goes as the scapegoat although Robin may want out as well.

In his biography, Terry Franacona said a manager faces at least 1 player crisis every day.
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  #75  
Old 08-05-2013, 06:51 PM
dickallen15 dickallen15 is offline
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It's like he's reading from a book when he does that stuff. Lefty up, better bring in Veal...no matter if the bases are loaded and Reed or Nate Jones, the far superior pitchers are available. 3 righties coming up? Well, put in Jones, even though it's the 6th inning and no one's on base. Tie game in the 8th and they have a runner on 2nd with a base open? Better IW the next batter to set up the double play, even though that batter is Chris Getz. Bullpen a little tired - what the heck, pitch the starters 115-120 innings.

I don't know how much Hahn has any say in this anyway. Kenny and JR picked him.
Lefty up he doesn't bring in Veal, basehit, gamethread is full of Ventura is an idiot.
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