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View Poll Results: What kind is Quintana?
He's a top of the rotation guy, and will get better. 3 2.80%
Solid #2-#3, consistent with his performance to date. 80 74.77%
Serviceable back end pitcher, his numbers will drop off 21 19.63%
Complete and total anomaly, sell high ASAP 3 2.80%
Voters: 107. You may not vote on this poll

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  #16  
Old 11-20-2013, 12:56 PM
Noneck Noneck is offline
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Originally Posted by MarksBrokenFoot View Post
The type of club the Sox have is terrible. If you're trying to build a team with bad defense and bad offense, yes, Quintana won't cut it. There aren't 5 pitchers in the league good enough to carry this team.

The point is that Quintana is the #2 on a team that can go nowhere in the near future. So What is Jose Quintana? A decent pitcher that wont make a difference in where the Sox are now in regards to competing.
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  #17  
Old 11-21-2013, 07:26 AM
MarksBrokenFoot MarksBrokenFoot is offline
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Originally Posted by blandman View Post
Mmmm...there are, but in general that's right. You can't assemble five pitchers that could carry this type of team. But a rotation of, say, Sale-Kershaw-Hernandez-Price-Scherzer would probably do it.
Sale would probably be the #3 in that rotation and the Sox managed to lose more of his starts than they won. Maybe if they had those 5 pitchers AND and Angels in the Outfield situation, they could squeak into the playoffs. Divine intervention probably wouldn't be enough to make it out of the wild card round.
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  #18  
Old 11-26-2013, 08:04 AM
WhiteSoxNation WhiteSoxNation is offline
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Currently his WAR avg is 3.9, Which is worth around 16M a year

His 2014 #s should be similar to 2013

maybe a bump in BAA, and an ERA are 3.60

He's a great #2 and a really good #3.

But not too many arms posting 200+ip and a ERA in the mid 3'S
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  #19  
Old 11-26-2013, 01:09 PM
blandman blandman is offline
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Originally Posted by WhiteSoxNation View Post
Currently his WAR avg is 3.9, Which is worth around 16M a year

His 2014 #s should be similar to 2013

maybe a bump in BAA, and an ERA are 3.60

He's a great #2 and a really good #3.

But not too many arms posting 200+ip and a ERA in the mid 3'S
Based on?

I think his 2014 #'s will plummet. I'm basing that off the fact that his pitch quality does not match that level of production. I'm not saying he'll have an ERA of 5 or anything like that, but it's a stretch to assume his production will remain close to this good.
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  #20  
Old 11-26-2013, 01:18 PM
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Originally Posted by blandman View Post
Based on?

I think his 2014 #'s will plummet. I'm basing that off the fact that his pitch quality does not match that level of production. I'm not saying he'll have an ERA of 5 or anything like that, but it's a stretch to assume his production will remain close to this good.
Didn't somebody already post that Quintana's fastball, for example, was a Top 10 fastball in the AL last year? There's more to pitching than just reaching back and throwing as hard as you can, dude.
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  #21  
Old 11-26-2013, 02:47 PM
TaylorStSox TaylorStSox is offline
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Originally Posted by doublem23 View Post
Didn't somebody already post that Quintana's fastball, for example, was a Top 10 fastball in the AL last year? There's more to pitching than just reaching back and throwing as hard as you can, dude.
I wouldn't even bother. He's posted the same thing 5 different ways in multiple threads.
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I'm not counting this homerun or his 3 RBI from today's game because of the game situation. I'm not counting his pinch hit solo homerun in a blowout win in Colorado. In my book, Crede has 2 less home runs than his statistics show, 4 less RBI, and one less walk (the one where he pinch hit for Uribe after coming in with a 3-0 count and taking one pitch).
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  #22  
Old 11-26-2013, 02:55 PM
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Originally Posted by TaylorStSox View Post
I wouldn't even bother. He's posted the same thing 5 different ways in multiple threads.
It's a quiet work week for me, I have nothing better to do but refute baseball claims on the internet
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  #23  
Old 11-26-2013, 04:56 PM
blandman blandman is offline
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Originally Posted by doublem23 View Post
Didn't somebody already post that Quintana's fastball, for example, was a Top 10 fastball in the AL last year? There's more to pitching than just reaching back and throwing as hard as you can, dude.
They based it off something that doesn't base it off of stuff, just effectiveness (which is not how you rate a fastball, or any pitch for that matter). A lot more than how good a pitch is goes into the stat that was brought up, including but not limited to deception, timing of usage/count, other pitches in at bat...you get the point. Jose's fastball is effective for reason beyond the talent, because the talent is not all that great. If you told a scout that Jose's fastball was in that top half of starters, that scout would laugh at you.

I know people are going to jump on that out of ignorance, but think of it this way: If a guy had the best fastball in baseball, but only threw that pitch, would he be effective? No. Does he have a better fastball than Quintana? Yes. They are two different things entirely.
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  #24  
Old 11-26-2013, 05:18 PM
TomBradley72 TomBradley72 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blandman View Post
They based it off something that doesn't base it off of stuff, just effectiveness (which is not how you rate a fastball, or any pitch for that matter). A lot more than how good a pitch is goes into the stat that was brought up, including but not limited to deception, timing of usage/count, other pitches in at bat...you get the point. Jose's fastball is effective for reason beyond the talent, because the talent is not all that great. If you told a scout that Jose's fastball was in that top half of starters, that scout would laugh at you.

I know people are going to jump on that out of ignorance, but think of it this way: If a guy had the best fastball in baseball, but only threw that pitch, would he be effective? No. Does he have a better fastball than Quintana? Yes. They are two different things entirely.
The endless debate continues- the actual 2 year performance of a 24 yo LHP- or all of the implications of the analysis of everything other than the actual results.

We'll see-

I'm betting on the young pitcher who improved in 2013 vs. 2012- and seems to have the stones to perform under pressure at 24-
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  #25  
Old 11-26-2013, 05:20 PM
TaylorStSox TaylorStSox is offline
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You don't rate a pitch off it's effectiveness?
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  #26  
Old 11-26-2013, 05:40 PM
blandman blandman is offline
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Originally Posted by TaylorStSox View Post
You don't rate a pitch off it's effectiveness?
No, because effectiveness is not the same thing. A terrible pitch is effective at the right time.
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  #27  
Old 11-26-2013, 06:55 PM
SoxSpeed22 SoxSpeed22 is offline
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For those of you keeping score, Jose's fastball rated at 17.6 Runs above average, meaning that he saved about 17 runs with that fastball. Only Clayton Kershaw, Matt Harvey, Cliff Lee, Max Scherzer, Andrew Cashner (remember him?) and Homer Bailey rated higher. Jose also finished in the top 50 in xFIP, FIP, tERA and K/9. (Info from Fangraphs)
FanGraphs had him as a regression candidate last year based on the numbers, but he had a better year thanks to his offseason training program. All of these numbers point to a #3 on a contending team, and possibly a #2 if he continues to improve. I'm not going to argue with his production at his age.
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  #28  
Old 11-26-2013, 08:36 PM
TheVulture TheVulture is offline
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Originally Posted by SoxSpeed22 View Post
...Jose's fastball rated at 17.6 Runs above average, meaning that he saved about 17 runs with that fastball.
Runs above average for a specific pitch? That's a new one for me, just when I thought they couldn't come with any more baseball stats.
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  #29  
Old 11-26-2013, 11:23 PM
blandman blandman is offline
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Originally Posted by SoxSpeed22 View Post
For those of you keeping score, Jose's fastball rated at 17.6 Runs above average, meaning that he saved about 17 runs with that fastball.
If you're using this to talk about the effectiveness of the pitch instead of how good the pitch is on it's own, then that's alright. But if it's to show that the pitch is a good fastball, then this is a poor, uneducated use of the statistic. Pitch quality merits happen in a vaccuum, based on movement/location/command. They are not based on production because production is a factor of every other pitch the player throws. If you're basing the quality of a pitch based on anything but the pitch itself in a vacuum, you have no understanding on how to evaluate a pitch. A 97 mph fastball with good control/command is a good pitch. The 91 mph four seamer that Quintana throws for the bulk of his fastballs is batting practice quality based on stuff. It is effective due to other facts (hiding the ball, having a large repertoire, etc.) that have nothing to do with the quality of his fastball. It's effective, but it's still not a plus pitch. Chris Sale's fastball is a plus pitch.

It's why I keep saying Quintana is more of a crafty pitcher. He relies on deception, and command of several pitches with none of them being exceptional. Once all of that isn't working for him perfectly, it's going to fall apart (with various results based on how much he maintains). He doesn't have the stuff to succeed without it at a high level. Sure, he might end up being Buehrle and never losing it. But most of the time, guys like him end up being back end starters for their careers.

Last edited by blandman; 11-26-2013 at 11:34 PM.
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  #30  
Old 11-27-2013, 01:47 AM
Falstaff Falstaff is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blandman View Post
Mmmm...there are, but in general that's right. You can't assemble five pitchers that could carry this type of team. But a rotation of, say, Sale-Kershaw-Hernandez-Price-Scherzer would probably do it.
We can only dream yet i was wondering is that your 1-5 order?
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